The co-founder of Apple is here at GOTO Copenhagen, Mr. Wozniak. It's a pleasure to have you here. You just met with a large group from the Danish tech scene. What was your impression?

Well, I was actually... I actually knew that they were basically largely programmers and the like, so I was just trying to make my answers in ways that would fit the audience.  The audience looked attentive and appreciative. And... what's your advice for the Danish tech scene? What do you think is key to getting a good tech environment here and a good tech startup scene here?

Mmm, I think it all starts in elementary school when you're very young. Because by the time you're about 20 years old, your personality is settling in for life. Are you going to be an inventor, a creative person going after new things, or are you just going to be trying to look for jobs and ask questions like, "Where's the money? How can I have a position that controls things?" You know, it's that sort of thing. And you want to see more creativity, so you really want people growing up with this idea of: I don't know; you're not trained; the answers aren't all in books; the answers are your own, and what you find out; explore and innovate and find new ways.

You are watching technology obviously. You know, you saw a trend back when you founded Apple. When you look at technology now, what do you think is the most important thing that's happening in the world right now, in the world of technology?

You used to own a product; you cannot own it anymore. For example, you have a phone, and there might be a hundred thousand people that wrote bits of the code that make it work. No one person can analyze one product and understand what it is. When I was young, almost everything you

bought, even a car, you could kind of know every component in it and how it worked and why it worked and what it did. Also, um, that was, you know, so in the old days you owned things, but now we're going to a subscription market almost

everybody who starts a company wants to be a unicorn, and the only way to be a unicorn isn't to sell a product; it's to entrap you and have you subscribing as a regular customer and build up a database and really kind of entrap you

into their ways. Habits don't go away, and I think that's a large part of the tech scene today. It's not so much, "Oh, can I do something totally new that's never been done?" Only, "What value does it have? How can I, you know, make money off

of it?" And what technology that you see right now that does have, has, or will have the biggest impact on the world we live in? Well, a lot of technology I can't predict. Some of these things, because they're so new, the ones that would have the biggest impact,

you're always uncertain of, or every single person would know it; we'd all read the same books and the same articles. Quantum computing is one of those variables; it could be huge, or it could be, you know, meaningless for really things that matter and make a difference.

Artificial intelligence is just the application of computers today. It shouldn't be called intelligence; it isn't. It isn't going to get there; it isn't even close. We haven't even thought about making it as smart as the brain of an ant. We've never thought about building a

computer that would say, "What should I do today?" You see, that's the difference with the inter—the intuition of a human brain—that we really haven't gotten close to. As far as what I do see evolving and being important, I think more and more robotics, and I'm hoping they get more

personal. Right now we have personal assistants that you can talk to and ask questions, and that's brain stuff. But there's a lot of things around your house that—you know, Roomba is a good example of a device—it actually does some work in the house for you. I'd like

a Roomba that sits washing my car every night in the garage or in the driveway; just washes it all night long, one centimeter at a time, very slowly, steps, but it gets it done by the morning, all on its own. I'd like things that maybe wash my

dishes. I can just shove them into one bowl, and it can sit there—a little robot that picks them up and doesn't damage them. Think about a child, think about yourself, how you learned to hold things and not damage them. You went through a whole learning experience as a

human being, and we haven't talked about robots doing that, taking that step in artificial intelligence. Someday, way off in the future, maybe we'll actually start approaching it as a learning—the same way, with long time frames, the same way humans learn to do everything, like walk.

and balance, even if it doesn't come as quickly as we want. Even the humanoid robots to this day are very slow. Does it sound like you don't believe AI will impact the world as much as other people may think? I'm not

sure what everyone thinks, but I think they prefer to go to the intelligence side, that it's actually doing thinking like a human brain. And nothing is shown to be even close to that. And the like, self-driving cars, the situations that come up are just emerging.  Even the dumbest human being in the

world can maybe see something up in advance and chart a course, adapting to it. And none of this artificial intelligence is close to that and really gonna be able to solve the unknowns. I know a few that I've seen, but then I keep seeing more and more. My wife and I

drive a lot, and sure, 99% of our drives are fine and nothing's happening.  Artificial intelligence, self-driving works fine. I'm not gonna call it artificial intelligence; it's not intelligence. It's just the extreme end of what computers can do. So, where if you were to found a

company today, what would that company do? Wow. I think it would be building Internet of Things, small little devices, new ones that don't exist yet. I try to think... yeah, I think your very strange idea is something I could have for myself that doesn't exist that I couldn't buy. And

the reason is, I always avoided doing what other people were doing. I was very shy and I didn't want to compete head-on.  Then we're both coming out of the same engineering books, and you're gonna do the same as me, and if you got more

Money and more big company, you're going to be... not I want to go off and do very unusual things, even if they don't have any monetary value to people or to companies, but they're just fun to do. I would still want to be doing

that, and writing programs that solve little games and puzzles in life. Apple has become a massive company, one of the biggest in the world. A lot of people are investing in it, a lot of people here in Denmark as well, interact with their products, invest in Apple. What do you

think of Apple when you look at it today? What do you think of the position Apple is in today? Well, Apple is good and flexible. We were flexible in our earliest days. We started out with a game machine and discovered, sort of early on with a spreadsheet program, these small

computers can do things the big mainframes can't. That's where the big money is in the market, and we diverted off into a lot more of the business type stuff and eventually, over time, we saw that the mouse-based computer that sees the world in two dimensions—the screen

in two dimensions—and a lot of humanist features. Call a screen a desktop, something familiar to humans. Have a little icon that looks like a paintbrush and it paints. That was a step that we saw, and we took all these steps. They involved a lot of different

user interface methods—you know, the mouse and then the touchscreens on the iPhone and all that—and so we've always been adapting to where we see the future heading. Right now we've gotten into a lot of financial stuff. It all started with Touch ID, using your

fingerprint instead of having to type passwords for a phone, and sure enough, every other major phone manufacturer in the world followed Apple's lead. But Apple's lead them, let it have the first phone that you could actually use to tap and pay for things. That's called Apple

Pay. Google phones could do that before, but you had to buy one of two Google phones in the world. I did, because I experiment a lot—self-experimentation is what my life's about—and you had to then you had to turn the phone on, type the unlock code of the phone, then you had to

run an app—fine, run an app and run a Google Wallet or whatever it was called then—and then you had to type in the PIN number for a credit card, and then you could tap and pay. Wait a minute, what's wrong with that scenario? A credit card's

faster. Apple came up with one: you don't even turn your phone on; you hold it over the retail device and put your finger on to identify yourself, and you're done. You know, it's like those kinds of thinking: how do we make life very easy

and simple for things that people do every day all the time and make people feel happy with what they've got? So do you feel confident that Apple can stay ahead of its competitors? I think Apple's going into new markets now, and especially Apple Pay and the Apple credit card, and that would an

incredible thing for this company. It's huge. As Apple comes out with a credit card that really has decent features. Okay, it's not the extreme, you know, highest cashback in the world, but it works so nicely, and and I think I think that Apple is seeing a

A lot of its services are taking over Apple TV. I've only, um, had time—I've been very busy—I've only had time to watch one show so far, "The Morning Show," and I really like it. That's good, and I don't have to...

watch "Stranger Things" on Netflix. I don't watch too many of these new ones. I don't watch television, so that's why I don't see too much, but I'm very happy that Apple's on the right track to what people want.

Steve, another tech companies say that the most important thing in staying ahead is getting the right people; for instance, engineers. How do companies—tech companies and others—attract the right talent? What would make you join a company today? What would the company need to attract talent like...

yourself? Yeah, if I like the company for its products or how they were already a part of my life, I would want to be in on that company. If I already appreciate the company, and I don't know where it comes from, so I can't give you a direct...

formula. Companies approach, let's say, university students and say, "Would you come work for us next year? And we have all these perks and perks and perks and perks and perks." I think that's effective and it works, but it's not the way I would go about something.

And I had a good friend from Mexico, and I actually believe in Ron. If he was in a country that couldn't appreciate his brain and didn't have the university resources for computer stuff—this was decades ago—and I actually paid for his education. Ron came to the United...

States, and right away, Microsoft started offering him, you know, millions of dollars, a home, and all this stuff. And he said no. That's why they were offering so much money; there's something wrong when that's how it's being done. And he just went to work for some little startup

that was working on the first avatars back when the internet was slow, dial-up, and online services. He did something that was like, for the good man, you might have working for other major operations like Yahoo and Facebook. But I like the

integrity. Integrity is a big thing. You know, I'm going to work for somebody who's doing something really new that's going to benefit society, not who's paying me the most. And Steve Wozniak, you mentioned your former partner, Steve Jobs, a

bunch of times today. You mentioned your lifelong friendship with him until his passing. I know it's a big question, but if he was around today, just for one day, and he saw what Apple is now, what do you think? How would you think he would

react? I think he'd have his own. He has something done by someone else; he preferred to do it himself. But it would be better for the world, and he would, and he would be—it would he be glad to see what Apple has become today? As you see it, I

believe he would. I think he'd have maybe regrets that it didn't go into some other things as well and was even bigger, and if he were only there and been able to witness it. But I think he'd be extremely happy. I think he really...

Tim Cook talking about a story of the day that he met Steve Jobs and he said, "This is the company I have to work for," because of the way Steve Jobs thought and worked. And he carries that with him everywhere he goes. Why is Apple the best company? I remember...

talking about values in life and religious values with Steve when we were very young.  Wise Apple, the one company that doesn't care about your gender, or if you're gay or trans, or anything. Why is it the one company that just doesn't pay attention...

to those things? It's absolutely right from the very top down, you know, and I'm glad. And I think that's going to have a big influence on the rest of the world in the end.

Steve Wozniak: How Steve Jobs would react if he could see Apple today

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