Hello, I will start the 12th episode of the Main's podcast. I am Gogoider. Hello, I am Panda, who moved to Sejong three weeks after returning to Korea, and I am actively purchasing items on the Carrot Market. We have returned after spending the Chuseok holiday well. Today, the topic I want to discuss is the phenomenon of young men in their 20s that is also appearing in the U.S., specifically how young men are being categorized in a particular way. This was based on an article that came out on August 24th in the New York Times, titled Gen Z men are showing a tendency to lean conservatively. If you look at the visualized content, it points out that the younger demographic, usually aged 18 to 29, has traditionally been associated with the liberal side, but the article highlighted a significant divergence in their tendencies.

If you look at it, the younger generation tends to be more liberal, but young men are currently leaning towards conservatism, while women are exhibiting a very progressive tendency. This stark gender gap within a single generation can be a socially significant issue, as pointed out in this article. Prior to this, in January of this year, an article in the Financial Times became quite controversial. Many people may have seen it, and it illustrates how the ideological gap is divided by gender within the younger generation. South Korea showed the most extreme case. You can see that young men in South Korea have turned very conservatively in recent years, while women globally are leaning more towards liberalism. This was highlighted in the January issue of the Financial Times.

There was an article that discussed how this trend is observed globally. Earlier this year, it was covered, but now, the New York Times has published an article that focuses more intensively on the tendencies of young men in their twenties in the United States. One notable aspect is that the phenomenon of young men in their twenties that we have already experienced in Korea is also being observed in the U.S. This change is primarily economic, leading to a transformation in the traditional male identity. Consequently, this generation seems to be experiencing significant confusion regarding social gender identity. Additionally, with the advancement of women's rights compared to the past, there is a tendency to emphasize women's rights in opposition to previously existing discrimination. As a result, in the bottom right corner, you can see the phrase The future is female, which highlights the negative aspects of masculinity, reinforcing this opposing direction.

It seems that the phenomenon of imbalance has occurred in recent society, and these aspects have contributed to significant psychological anxiety among young men. When I read this article, I initially approached it with a somewhat negative and critical perspective. The article suggests that men who support Mr. Trump tend to lack a college education, which raises the question of whether that really is the case. Despite my skepticism, the data presented in the article reflects certain truths, so it would be worthwhile to discuss that aspect.

The article identifies two main points. First, it states that we are currently in an era where women have received more education than men. You can see that in terms of four-year graduation rates and six-year graduation rates, women's educational levels are significantly higher. As a result, compared to previous eras, there has been a considerable shift in power dynamics.

There were many job opportunities, but as the social structure has changed, there has been an increase in jobs that require a college degree. As a result, with the relative increase in women's educational attainment, we can see that women are increasingly occupying those jobs. I found the graph on the right interesting; it shows that in the United States, the percentage of families where women are the primary caregivers—whether they are single mothers or married women who take on the role of homemaker—is gradually increasing. Due to these social characteristics, traditional male roles are changing, and younger generations are feeling anxious about this. Consequently, there is a growing support for the strong leadership represented by the Trump administration. This was the main point, although I felt there was a bit of a logical leap in the article.

This article is somewhat intended to present an agenda. Currently, in the United States, the article suggests that men have become extreme right-wingers. However, from what I see, both the graphs and the data indicate that men haven't shifted drastically toward conservatism; rather, women have moved relatively more towards liberalism, which has widened the gap. In the U.S., it seems like this article is steering the narrative in that direction. Additionally, the way it stereotypes these men seems to be a bit too framed, which I view critically. First of all, it is an obvious fact that women are achieving higher levels of education; there is sufficient data to support this. However, are men becoming more conservative, or are women becoming more progressive in their own rights?

I think it's about appealing to opinions. I lean more towards the latter. I feel like we are living in an era where women are expressing their social opinions more actively than before. Recently, I saw something about how men, after going through adolescence, especially those with below-average academic abilities, feel a lot of alienation. The reason is that, currently, the college enrollment rates are already higher for women in most developed countries, including South Korea, and even in all developing countries. Additionally, the rate of women obtaining master's and doctoral degrees is also often higher. So, are women studying better? Yes, women are performing well academically. To be precise, it is said that men's cognitive abilities are lagging behind. There are even claims that boys should start school a year later. Well, that claim isn't the mainstream view, but it's still being discussed.

According to certain developmental standards, the fact that male cognitive abilities grow more slowly than those of females is evident. This creates a significant challenge for boys, especially those with below-average academic levels. In the last 10 to 20 years, the advancement of women's rights and their participation in society and the economy, along with the increase in college enrollment rates, have contributed to girls performing well academically. They take on leadership roles such as class president and vice president, and they are diligent. In contrast, boys often want to go out and play, expressing their impulses and desires. In the past, traits like aggression and proactivity, which were seen as positive aspects of boys, are now being re-evaluated.

Recently, there has been a tendency for girls to be more uplifted in a certain atmosphere. The second point is that the ratio of female teachers in elementary, middle, and high schools is particularly high; in elementary schools, it is around 90% based on U.S. standards, and I don't think Korea is significantly different. While the percentage of male teachers is gradually increasing, it is still around 60% in high schools, meaning that about 60% of the teachers are women. This creates a situation where boys may not have many male role models. Therefore, these three points overlap, leading to a scenario where, despite the rising value of alpha males, boys with academic abilities may feel marginalized. Although there is no scientific evidence for this, it is evident that the participation of women in society is increasing.

Economically, it is obviously wonderful to gain more opportunities, but there is an analysis suggesting that one might feel a sense of alienation while looking at this world. I also saw statistics on suicide rates in that article. I had a feeling, without any solid basis, that the suicide rate among women would be higher, but it turns out that men have a higher rate. Really? I didn't know that; I thought it would be higher among women. There’s also that saying that among the elderly, men tend to die shortly after their wives pass away, while women live longer even after their husbands die. Yes, that’s right. And when you look at it, there’s also the phenomenon of hikikomori; it’s not that I directly want to end my life...

Although they may not have alcohol addiction or drug addiction, people who are socially isolated due to other addictions, such as gaming or hikikomori, also engage in behaviors that can be broadly defined as self-destructive. The likelihood of such behaviors occurring is significantly higher in men. It's not just a matter of being a little more common; it's several times more prevalent. When analyzing the underlying causes, we find that several reasons I mentioned earlier overlap and contribute to this phenomenon. 

Connecting this to today's topic, those men who feel alienated may lean towards conservatism. Since voting rights are equal for everyone, these individuals could recently form a significant part of the male conservative movement. I just had a really interesting thought about this.

As we have been implementing welfare policies, we often talk about tailoring them to specific target groups. For example, we have focused on single mothers, teenagers transitioning out of care facilities, the elderly, and young adults, providing selective welfare based on these categories. However, listening to Peter's insights now makes me think that it might be worthwhile to design and implement welfare policies specifically for single men. I believe this aspect is very important because the proportion of single men in Korea is significantly increasing, and this trend is likely to continue. I see this as a social risk factor. Recently, there was an incident in Korea where a man in his twenties used a baseball bat...

A woman in her forties was beaten, to the point of near death. Naturally, the perpetrator has been caught and will go to prison. However, what he said was that he didn't know this woman, and that women seem to adapt to society too easily and live their lives too comfortably, which was the source of his anger. Oh really? Yes, yes, he reportedly said this during the police investigation. It can be viewed as just a case of one madman, but I believe there needs to be social attention towards such individuals. To eliminate these kinds of risks, for instance, among men, there's often talk about how the playing field is tilted in favor of women when only men are present. So whether I agree with that or not, I do agree to some extent.

I agree, but I tend to disagree for the most part because that argument feels a bit more radical and distant. However, the sense of defeat or frustration that men actually feel and express regarding women does exist, and I think that is what was just mentioned in the case Peter talked about. So, while women's rights are on the rise, there is still a long way to go. On the other hand, men are already starting to feel a sense of defeat and express dissatisfaction, often in violent or irrational ways. As mentioned earlier, this may be politically visualized in the phenomenon of the young men in their 20s. The gender gap seems to be narrowing here, but there is still a gap remaining, and in between, a new gap is emerging. Recently, I came here to look for a job and had an interview.

I saw a few things, and one part that surprised me was when I went in for an interview at a public institution. As far as I know, most of the team members I would be working with are women, and the team leader is also a woman. However, all five people who interviewed me were middle-aged men, which was somewhat of a cultural shock for me. I wondered why the people I would be working with, in such a large institution, were not present, and why there were only men. I think this reflects the gap that still exists despite the rising status of women. On the other hand, when I am with my male friends or acquaintances, I often hear expressions about women that reflect a different kind of gender manifestation. Additionally, I showed this graph to a friend in her twenties in the U.S. and asked for her opinion. However, she...

My friend looked at this graph and said, Oh, that seems right. They were not surprised at all, but rather pointed out that the 45 to 64 age group has a different perspective. They mentioned, Look, our parents' generation just followed what our fathers said and didn't have much interest in politics. This shows that there is a significant difference in perception between generations. I think having a somewhat dramatic voice and identifying as different from traditional women is a phenomenon that amplifies those voices. 

What's really interesting about this graph is that support for Harris suddenly increases among those aged 65 and older. It's quite surprising. Just as a joke, feel free to edit this out: it's not that all men over 65 die early, but older people tend to prefer welfare policies, which leans them towards the Democratic Party.

Preferences can vary, and since I am already retired at the age of 65, I think it's important to consider this. When we look at household items, it’s interesting to note how companies target middle-aged women in their marketing strategies. These women hold significant purchasing power and decision-making authority. This trend seems to be reflected in politics as well. Recently, I've noticed that Harris's campaign is actively trying to appeal to women voters, especially regarding issues like abortion. Conversely, if we were to create policies or initiatives targeting marginalized men, it makes me wonder if, until now, the focus has predominantly been on women due to these movements. Perhaps this has shaped the ideologies in business and politics, and I find myself contemplating whether this is the outcome of that focus.

The article mentions that the person being discussed is Korean. It refers to an article published in Politico, suggesting that phenomena first observed in Korea might appear in the United States. It draws a parallel between the current situation of young men in Korea and similar issues in the U.S. The article highlights that during the 2022 presidential election, targeting young men with military issues and the promise to abolish the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family helped to turn the tide in favor of the candidate. It suggests that, similarly, political factions in the U.S. may also solidify their support bases through gender conflicts. Furthermore, despite Korea being a relatively good place to live, it is unfortunately noted for having one of the worst glass ceiling issues, and it ranks among the worst countries in terms of gender pay equality.

It is still a pressing issue. So, as Panda mentioned, it has decreased significantly, but there is still a long way to go. At the same time, there are marginalized groups that are being left behind in this process, which seems to be the current reality. Unfortunately, I think that the targets of business and politics are becoming increasingly polarized. What is concerning is that if this gender conflict continues, it will inevitably lead to the decline in birth rates that we are currently witnessing in Korea, resulting in mutual hatred. If I may add, if you look at the data on the right, you will see that in 2016, it was a time when feminist issues were emerging globally. I’m not sure how the timeline fluctuated in Korea, but at that time, there were incidents like the Gangnam station murder case, which had a significant impact on women.

The anger, or rather the anger stemming from things like revenge porn, has been significant among women. In Korea, especially among the younger generation of women, there has been a strong wave of feminism, which I viewed very positively. During that time, socio-economic issues were frequently discussed, and a commonly used indicator was the gender pay gap. It was noted that Korea has a substantial gap in this area. So, what is the cause of this gender pay gap, as recognized by the women's community and society as a whole? 

First, let me clarify that I included the 2024 data here. The graph I brought shows that in 2024, there is still a gap of about three times compared to the OECD average. The reason for this gap is largely due to career interruptions faced by women.

After having a child, some women return to work, but others resign. However, when the child grows up and they want to return to work, can they expect to earn the same salary and have the same quality of work as before? In most cases, the answer is no, and many find themselves pushed into low-wage, unstable jobs. This often applies to positions like supermarket cashiers or cleaners, often held by women, commonly referred to as ajumma. Therefore, it was widely analyzed that this contributes to the issue of wage disparity. On the other hand, South Korea's birth rate continues to decline. If women choose not to have children, will this reduce wage disparity? The assumption was that there would be no career interruptions, but this has now become a reality.

Korea is reducing its pay at a very fast pace. However, looking at this, it seems that over the past eight years, as you mentioned, it has been about 5.5%. I vaguely remember that it seemed to have been given at an even faster rate, which was impressive. Anyway, regarding the interview experience that the previous speaker mentioned, there are still some gender-related factors that remain. In particular, there are statistics showing that the top 450 pay apps are still in place when it comes to income. Ultimately, I believe that within 10 to 20 years, this will change. At least, according to current statistics, I suspect that it will drop below Japan and Chile. The reason is that, based on my personal experience, there are many women in my company who choose not to have children, and they are doing very well in their careers. So, naturally...

You will play a role in reducing certain types of pay, and there are predictions regarding that. Personally, I think it’s a very insightful observation. However, I wonder if there is still a significant difference between business income and pay plus business income. I think the ratio of men running businesses might be higher than that of women, which could suggest that men take on more risks and therefore have a slightly higher income level compared to women entrepreneurs. 

Regarding the graph on the right, I think there might be an issue with how the data is captured. Is it including business income or financial income, or is it just comparing wages? It’s not clearly visible in the table. They likely calculated the gap within similar ranks and functions, not just an arbitrary gap. For that to be valid, there should be similar ranks and functions within the organization being compared.

I think there might have been considerations about the gap between people. However, it seems that the OECD statistics did not delve into that detail. They probably just compiled income data and divided it into the next categories. I'm not sure if they separated business income and wage income. I think I need to look at the raw data. But interpreting that as gender pay gap and attaching that title might lead to some distortion or misreading. The title seems to suggest a feeling about the data. The main message is labeled as pay, but it appears to be earnings, which is good. Therefore, while wage disparity is indeed significant, for example, there are still more men in high-ranking positions, so in our country, the wage gap might be part of the issue, but in reality, there is also business income to consider.

Our country has a very high proportion of self-employed individuals. Among self-employed people, are there more men than women? And among those who earn well, are there more men or women? I think this could be a factor in the figures we see. This could be the case because, compared to other OECD countries, our country's proportion of self-employed individuals is very high. But if all the self-employed individuals are men, then it follows that these business owners would earn more. In that case, these figures could be justified. As we discussed earlier, we have made significant efforts, and it seems that many women have reached the level of department heads within organizations. As time goes on, we may reach what is commonly referred to as the executive level, which is represented in the left graph.

I think the number of people who are rising will increase because things have changed a lot. However, what's unfortunate is that at the same time, another social problem is arising on the opposite side. The point that Peter mentioned earlier seems to be very important. I think that as social structures change, the physical aspects that used to allow men to contribute well to society are gradually diminishing due to the information revolution. I believe this will become even more severe with the advent of AI. Will it really get worse? There are other analyses as well. For example, AI, specifically generative AI, excels at replacing existing high-income, highly educated jobs, such as lawyers, programmers, and even doctors. So, what will the focus of survival be? Some scholars argue that it will be on service jobs.

I saw predictions that jobs requiring face-to-face interaction and emotional empathy will survive well in the future. For example, what are some of these jobs? Well, counseling services come to mind. Yes, professions primarily occupied by women are likely to endure, as well as physical labor that cannot be automated. Furthermore, those involved in designing systems and making policy decisions will also survive. 

However, I wonder how much the gender ratio differs in these roles and what their average incomes are. Will the gap narrow or widen? That will be a determining factor, I think. It seems difficult to predict this. So, I don’t want to conclude definitively that men will be more disadvantaged. It all depends on how societal structures change.

I think these issues may arise as another enhancement occurs. Personally, I believe that in a society where individuals' slightly heightened abilities are competitive—specifically, men embodying what we call masculine traits, which are somewhat rooted in testosterone—there is a fundamental limit. On the other hand, women are often said to excel in communication and empathy. While this may be a sexual stereotype, as we move into the mobile and IT revolutions, it's not just about physical presence or communication. The value of an individual is no longer solely about competitive contributions. In our social networks and communities, becoming an influencer and creating connections reflect how the business incentive structure of society is shifting toward areas where women tend to excel.

I think things have been moving. But if AI develops to the point where everything becomes really cheap, like Elon Musk mentioned in a recent interview, then the marginal cost of producing everything converges to the cost of materials, making production very inexpensive. If humans can immerse themselves only in what they truly value, I wonder if ultimately people will lose interest in connecting with others. That’s why I think I jumped to that conclusion. It’s a really interesting discussion. However, while this may seem like a current issue, as the structure changes, some people will find themselves in better situations, while others will be in worse ones, regardless of whether it’s based on generation or gender. It’s a topic that makes you think deeply. Lastly, I briefly checked the facts regarding gender, and the numbers are accurate.

Compared to 2016, there has indeed been a reduction of about 5% by 2024. So, when we look at statistics regarding other countries, such as the UK, we see that Korea is also experiencing a decrease in the gender popularity gap at a similar rate. The only difference is the starting point; for instance, in 1985, Korea had a gap of around 40-50%, while the UK had about 30%. Both countries are reducing this gap at a similar pace, and I feel that Korea has a bright future ahead. It has definitely improved a lot, and I have noticed significant progress over the past 10 to 20 years. However, I hope that there won’t be anyone left behind in this process, as we previously discussed in our group. I also wonder if AI will bring about another wave of challenges in a different form. This topic has indeed become quite significant. There has been a considerable increase in social interest regarding borderline intellectual functioning.

I feel like I'm on the rise these days. This is about people with intellectual disabilities, but not to the extent of being classified as such; they are right above that level. So, when it comes to doing certain tasks, socially, they seem completely fine, but when they are assigned a task, their performance noticeably drops. What does the boundary mean? Is it about the meaning between people, or is it talking about the boundary of intellectual disabilities? It's about classifying the boundary between those who have intellectual disabilities and those who do not. There are people who are wandering around that area, who are not classified as having intellectual disabilities, but when they perform certain tasks, their performance significantly declines. These are individuals who struggle with job performance or students who face difficulties in their studies.

It seems that there is a general perception, but I have seen data indicating that the proportion of men among these people is high. I really think we need to check the data on this. However, I also wonder if these individuals might largely belong to the group experiencing the young men of the 2030s phenomenon, or if they feel frustration and defeat compared to women. I didn't mention this earlier due to time constraints, but I believe that this also plays a role. Women tend to develop their communication skills early and are proficient in communication. However, when we measure intelligence, it seems that a significant part of it includes communication skills. So, I don't know; it could genuinely be a drop in intellectual capacity, but if communication skills decline, it might lead to a perception of lower social intelligence.

Recognition is possible, and that could be the case. This relates to the fact that there is a discussion about social intelligence, which is somewhat unrelated to communication in the context of intelligence tests. Borderline intellectual functioning actually manifests in ways that are not just about IQ. While IQ can be measured, when it comes to performing a job, it's important to have metacognitive awareness of what one does not know. If a person lacks this awareness, communication might be less effective. If they don't understand why they are struggling or what they are unable to do, the person assigning tasks might label them as incapable, and this can lead to a lack of second chances. Therefore, social skills can indeed be considered a form of intelligence. However, in a strict sense, borderline intellectual functioning is primarily discussed in terms of IQ. One might also consider if men think about this differently.

As Peter mentioned, men tend to develop their abilities later than women. I wonder if our society is not providing sufficient opportunities for boys to catch up academically or develop their skills due to educational systems and practices. From a young age, those who fall behind continue to lag, and we often hear that the dropout rate is alarmingly high in middle and high school education. I think it's time to systematically devise ways for society to offer these individuals a chance to catch up. Regarding borderline intellectual functioning, 90% of those diagnosed are female, as Peter mentioned earlier. In fact, we often measure everything by various societal standards, including productivity, which can create unintentional biases.

There are many standards created according to people's abilities and societal trends. When I become an adult and my self-identity is formed, I can filter these standards. However, if I receive constant negative feedback from an environment before my self-identity is established, I feel like I will be deprived of opportunities for growth and improvement. The issue here is that their parents' generation would have been different. For example, if I were a father who is very alpha and lived proactively during the industrial era, and my son says, I'm struggling, I think that father would respond negatively. As I mentioned earlier, there are no good role models, and there isn't a social atmosphere that can nurture those aspects well. I believe there are structural problems in this situation. Thank you all for listening today.

I will see you again next time. Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much. Goodbye.

Ep12. 미국에서도 이대남 현상이?

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