so I wondered what's motivated you cuz you push in so many directions simultaneously you have to be really highly motivated to do that and so you figured out that the question in a sense was the answer yeah the question or or I said another way that seeking greater

Enlightenment and a better understanding of the universe and more questions to ask about it is something that we can continue to do as a civilization for yeah likely forever exactly so depending on how powerful grock turns out to be yeah that's so then I thought okay I'll

work on things that improve our understanding of the Universe I know now they say like at a base level this is why I actually think we want a population increase because population increase means that there are more people that we've expanded the scale more brains man yeah we've expanded the

scale of Consciousness to the degree there are different cultures we've expanded the scope of Consciousness how did you cotton on to the fact that antagonistic attitude towards birth that's embedded in our culture now was something that should be called out and

that was pathological I should perhaps go back to what is the foundation of My Philosophy because that I think helps build up to explain my actions so they when I was I don't know about 11 or 12 years old I had somewhat of an existential

crisis because it I there just do didn't seem to be any meaning in in the world like I no meaning to life and I actually read try to read all the religious texts at that age yes I was a a voracious reader as a kid I obviously read the

Bible, I read the Quran, the Torah, the various, but on the the Hindu side, just trying to understand all these things, and obviously as a 12-year-old you're not really going to understand these things super well, but I've just you understood it well enough to have an

existential crisis when you were 11 or 12. Yeah, I'm just trying, does anyone have an answer that that makes sense, and then I started getting into the philosophy books, and I read quite a bit of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, which is quite depressing to read as a kid. Yeah, I'd say

that that's depressing as as an adult, but and uh and none of them really seem to have to me answers that resonated, at least to me, and but then I read Douglas Adams's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which is really a book on philosophy disguised

in humor, and what Douglas Adams, the point that Adams tries to make there is that we don't actually know all the answers, obviously. In fact, we don't even know what the right questions are. That's where he has this in in if you read the

book, the Earth, it is actually a giant computer to understand the answer to the the question, what is the meaning of life, yeah, and comes up with the answer 42. Yeah, and feel like what do it what does that mean? It says oh, you actually you don't understand the

the real the thing that's going to take a computer far more powerful than Earth is to understand what question to ask. That's simply the wrong question. So was that the key realization that that question that was that was a fundamental turning point? Yeah, yeah, 'cause that's it, so

that's very interesting because one of the things that you see constantly portrayed in R of hero myths across the world is that the adventure is the thing and that the search is the thing rather than there being a final answer as absurd as 42 might be right there's no

the conclusive answer is something like deep engagement in the process so so I'll give you an example of that so in The Sermon on the Mount the sermon on the mount's a very detailed set of instructions yeah so there's three parts to it the first is aim at the highest

thing that you can possibly conceive of and keep modifying that so your aim gets better okay so that's number one number two is make the presumption that other people have the same intrinsic value as you do we have to be careful about that one okay let's discuss that but it's a

what would you say it's a recognition of the Universalist value of everyone who's made in the image of God it's something like that but the third thing is once you do those two things you can concentrate on the moment see and that

seems to be even technically you can think about this neuros psychologically if you're looking for meaning meaning is a form of incentive reward and incentive reward is dopaminergically mediated and incentive reward occurs in relationship to advance towards a goal which is a

form of entropy minimization as it turns out according to Karl Friston who knows the thing entropy is the ultimate boss battle Yeah negative emotion signifies the emergence of entropy and positive emotion on the dopaminergic side signals its reduction there's something that's more complex there because the higher

the goal that you're trying to attain, the more intrinsic value each step towards it comprises. And that's neuropsychologically accurate. It's part of the wisdom of The Sermon on the Mount: is that if you posit the highest imaginable goal, then any step towards it

is that captures your attention is also deeply meaningful. And so that's an answer to what the meaning is of process, rather than say something like 42. And you said it seems to me that you were intimating that your Discovery through Adams, that the question was the thing

was key to the resolution of your existential crisis. That's correct. Okay, so that's part of the reason that you're motivated to say build Grok 3 and look in, look deeper to understand the universe. Okay, so once, how old were you when you figured, when you figured

out that the question, 13 or something? What did that do to you? What did that do to you? I was a, I was a lot happier after that, because now it's okay. I'm just going to accept that we are ignorant of, of a great many things. Yeah, and we wish

to be less ignorant, and anything we can do that will improve our understanding of the universe and make us less ignorant and have a deeper understanding of the, the universe, and even more questions to answer, ask about the answer that is the universe, which is, I think Adams

a central point, is good. And is this a religion? I don't know, maybe it is, but I think it's one I'd call the religion of curiosity. Yeah, the, the ancient god of the Mesopotamians, his name was Marduk, and he was the best defense against

ensuing chaos and state corruption okay so that's how he was conceptualized okay mic had eyes all the way around his head okay cuz he paid attention right and he spoke magic words okay right and he was literally for the message he was the

agent that revitalized the tyrannical state and overcame evil and also the force that dispensed with chaos and built something magnificent and Cosmic out of it yeah sounds like a Force for good yeah the Mesopotamian Emperor so his job was to embody that Spirit on

Earth and they used to take him out of the city on New Year's Eve strip him of his kingly clothing humiliate him they slapped him the priests and then they'd ask him to confess all the ways that he hadn't been a good Marduk attentive and

speaking properly in the previous year and that's how they renewed The Cosmos every year and that's New Year celebration is a derivation of that out with the old and in with the new and the Egyptians they worship the I right you've seen that famous they all seeing

eye of Horus they all seeing eye of Horus that's the antidote to the eye of Sauron by the way cuz you get if you don't use that Vision if each citizen doesn't use that Vision it's replaced by the totalitarian all-seeing eye that's a hell

of a thing to know you talked about delving deeper into the structure of the universe let's say to answer fundamental questions like and you are a remarkably forward-looking person what do you what the hell do you think you're building with these AI systems what is this I

I think really what all the AI companies are aiming to build is uh digital super intelligence, so intelligence that's far smarter than any human, then ultimately an intelligence that is far smarter than all humans combined. Now, one can say is this a wise thing to do? Isn't this dangerous?

Unfortunately, whether we think that or not, it it is being done. But really from a standpoint of, from my standpoint, from the XI team standpoint, we are really, we have the choice of being a spectator or a participant. That's life, man. Yeah, be a spectator or or a participant. And I

think if we are a participant, we've got a better chance hopefully of steering AI in a direction that is beneficial to humanity. So why do you, why, okay, so why do you trust yourself on that front? Just out of, that's an important question, right? I don't trust myself entirely. Good.

That's, yes, fair enough. Okay, an ethical, right, ethical conundrum because you said this is happening now. The excuse that something is happening is not a rational reason for participating in it, but then your next take is we have the chance to do this properly. Let's say, Asos to, okay.

better. I think we, we from a moral standpoint, we really just need to think that maybe we've got a chance of it being better to some degree than what others are doing, and we will strive to avoid some of the pitfalls or directions that the others are going in because the

others, from what I've seen, do not strive for truth. What do they strive for? They strive for, they strive to give an answer, but they are, I think, trained to be politically correct, and the woke mind virus is woven in throughout them. I'm

sure you've seen that yeah definitely definitely definitely my students used to ask me when I because I've been teaching what I've been teaching for about 40 years and one of the questions they used to ask me is how I knew that what I was teaching wasn't just another

ideology cuz the postmodern take is all it is is a plethora of power games and so there's no rank ordering approaches to the truth in terms of their ethical suitability but that's not the game that you're playing and and obviously would not agree with with that philosophy why

not the sort of moral relativism what's convinced you that's not a useful way of approaching things I think you can look at a given belief system and critique it as being uh likely to enhance or decrease Enlightenment will any given belief system improve our understanding

of the universe will we learn more things will we achieve a deeper understanding of physics and so that's grounded at least in part in a scientific framework from the sounds of it I think there are facts about the world right there are things that are

just say let's say extremely likely to be true versus less likely to be true I think if one thinks in terms of probabilities about any given sort of axiomatic statement then that that's the right way to think about it now some things are 99.99% to be true you you can

run experiments you can confirm them and others are perhaps have a low probability of truth 1% likely to be true or just using extremes here but any given statement has I think should be thought of as having unless this should be thought of as having a probability of

being true or untrue, a probability of being relevant to an argument or not relevant to an argument, we're just talking about the basics of cogency here. Yeah, I didn't study science precisely. I wasn't as interested in the transformations of the material world, so

I'm probably more people-oriented than thing-oriented temperamentally, so I started to study evil, right? So that was my sure delving into the depths because I wanted to crack that. I wanted to understand if it, not so much even whether it existed, because I became

convinced of that very quickly, but what exactly that had to do with me? 'Cause when I was reading history, I read it as a perpetrator and not as a victim or a hero. I try to read history to discern the facts of what humans did, you know?

That also has shaped the way that you act, though, probably. Sure. I, I've read a lot of history and I try to understand the rise and fall of civilizations. And what do you think makes them fall? One of the things is a decreasing birth rate, which seems to be a natural consequence

of prosperity. Yeah, isn't that strange? 'Cause you'd predict the opposite, wouldn't you? As far as I know, every civilization that has experienced prosperity has had a decline in population. There may be a few exceptions, perhaps people can enlighten me. I'll look at this the

comments on this interview to see perhaps what I can learn. But it seems that from what I've read, every, almost every civilization when they become prosperous, their birth rate drops. I think that's a consequence of the emergence of something like a non-

punished hedonistic egocentrism as you obviously you mean there there certainly are many examples of of civilizations that become prosperous there is generally a trend towards hedonism yeah you can get away with it if you're wealthy because the consequences of your actions don't smack you

on the head instantly precisely if you're at a civilization under threat let's say you're there's a if you take say Rome when they were trying to not get annihilated by Carthage and they had Hannibal running around Maring Italy

they didn't have time for hedonism Hedonism is not an option we're going to get destroyed by Hannibal chip are down yeah when the when you're under when a civilization is under stress there's very little hedonism that takes place William

James said that the modern world needed a moral equivalent to war he investigated the religious realm very deeply and this I think this was in Varieties of Religious Experience and that really had an effect on me because I think that you need something akin to

an existential threat in order to set you straight I think there's some truth to that yeah like if it's a let's say if it's a spoiled child that we everything who gets that that kid gets everything he or she wants and you have a Baro

assault and and then R Lodge that is a civilization that is pro where people get everything they want I think it's the right way to think about it developmentally and neuropsychologically okay you had a rough childhood yeah yeah like rough and tumble rough childhood

plenty of fights and a father who is a difficult creature to contend with okay what did that do for you and are you grateful for it or are you unhappy about it I guess you never know the things that really made you who you are today

at the end of the day am I on net grateful for my life I am and perhaps even for the hard things because those hard things I learned from them what did you learn I read your auto your biography it's not an autobiography no

it's not no no definitely not I would tell it in a different way than Isaacson because Isaacson who I think is an excellent biographer is not nonetheless looking at things through his lens and wasn't there at the time of course of

course one of the things that stood out for me too though from that and I would like your comments about this was the rather the rough details of your childhood a lot of physical altercations and a lot of I don't know exactly how altercations I mean I was almost beaten

to death within an inch of my life at one point that counts that definitely counts as ays a few blows here and there yeah so what did that okay why weren't why aren't you bitter about that cuz that's a pathway that people take I I

think that there there are one one can take and often people do take the path of vengeance yeah that's for sure yeah or that's what antinatalism is yeah to say to feel that the world has treated them unfairly and that they will visit

upon the world that which the world has visited upon them and justified by recourse to the reality of their own suffering, which is often intense. So the story of Job, one of the things I concluded from the story of Job because it's a precursor to the crucifixion

story, so Job makes two decisions. The first decision is that no matter how terrible things become for him, he will not lose faith in himself, and the second is no matter what horrors are visited on him by Satan himself, he will not lose faith in the what would you say in the

spirit that gave rise to the cosmic order, no matter what. While I'm not a particularly religious person, I do believe that the teachings of Jesus are are good and and wise and that there's there's tremendous wisdom in turn the other cheek. And for a while there when I

was saying, I thought that's really a weak thing to, yeah, it can be if someone and with respect to bullies at school, I think you shouldn't turn the other cheek. You should punch them on the nose and then ultim and then thereafter

make peace with them, but they need to stop bullying you and a punch on the nose will stop that. And then thereafter make peace. So sometimes that punch on the nose is the first step in making peace with bullies. Yes, it may change their career from being a bully to

perhaps they shouldn't be doing such things, but yeah, I think this anyway. So this notion of forgiveness is important. It's I think it's essential because if you don't forgive, then as the I forget who said it, but an eye for an eye makes everyone blind. If you're going to seek

Vengeance, and you have this never-ending cycle of vengeance. There are anthropological speculations that we were caught in a 350,000-year cycle of not getting anywhere after modern human beings emerged, precisely because of that, because we couldn't get out of

accelerating tit-for-tat revenge cycles. Right, yeah. So I'm a big believer in, in, in the principles of Christianity. I think they're very good. So in what sense then are you not religious?

Elon Musk to Jordan Peterson: “Life had no Meaning”

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