if you could produce a more immersive social experience. Now, everybody's having their individual social experiences. Like, now what I worry about with AI, with VR, with all these kind of technologies that are expanding, we all inhabit our own singular world. Like, that is more frightening to me than like, yeah, you know, that we all converge to the same experience. [Music] So, what makes a human a human? It's one of those questions, isn't it? Um, I mean, there's like two ways I would look at it. Like, one is for my personal life and one is for my work life. Like, one thing that's interesting is like, there's been points when I've been spending like four to five hours a day in track AI. And the interesting thing that happens in that is the things that you notice, like when you first start inter- oh, this is really realistic. Similarly, like when people first had like black and white TV, yeah, and they're like, wow, this is like real life. But then, as you get used to it, you start to kind of

realize like the things that make it less authentic, and I think something that I real with AI is like there's certain ways that we interact that are just more spontaneous. Like there's something about the predictability of AI that teaches you about like the spontaneity of Being Human, um, the ways they communicate, the naturalness, the contextual awareness, like these little things that all add up. That's on the technical side. On the other side, I mean, I think there's something of just like the shared experience of being human that actually, I think, like differentiates it from like other animals' experience. Like, you know, you have a traumatic moment in your life, and then you start to resonate with other people's like, I feel like every time I've had something nearly catastrophic, it like opened up like a new door of empathy. And then you start to be like, Oh man, that really hurt, you know, or like when you cry about something, you're like, Wow. And then you start to remember like, because is what usually happens to me.

It's like I start crying about something, and then I think about all the things that I did for my mom or my grandma, and all these kinds of things, and the things that they felt. And I feel like there's something in that, kind of like shared experience, where we have these things that differentiate us. We're all different people, but there's something about those common feelings that it all kind of arises from. But anyway, that's one thought. I love that answer, and I'm going to say that you're not normal in that way. Here's why I don't think you're normal. People anthropomorphize anything. It doesn't have to even be that good, right? It doesn't have to be anywhere near as good as AI for people to treat it like it has some human character. People treat their cars like they're people. So, I'm surprised that when you interact with it a lot, it feels less real to you. There's something about, like, I think about resolution. It's like

the way of seeing the world and like you kind of increased this right. It's like the same reason you can't look at TV that's not 4K now. And it's someone I think who worked on like early VR was saying you know the interesting thing about it was like when you stepped out of it you're like oh the real world is actually amazing and it's actually really hard to recreate that in technology. And I think the same is true for AI is like maybe for some people when they interact with it the thing that they see is some commonality but the thing that I always notice is like this is very different from the conversations I have with my parents even though it said something similar. There's something off and I it's it's those little things that it's like that's like I think what over time will add up as people use AI more is they'll start to recognize and I can't even point at them like what are those nuan though that you make us human. You just

you just know it when you see it and you're like, and it's missing an AI. Yeah, so I mean that, that's also interesting 'cause what you just suggested is that the more people use AI, the less real it's going to feel to people. You think that's what's going to happen? I mean, there's probably another case like, you know, it's the same way as like, you know, your Instagram and Facebook feed isn't a real conversation, but there are certainly kids, especially, who would look at those kinds of feeds and feel like, Oh, that's a real representation of my friends or my, you know, my favorite celebrities or whatever, actually think, but it's like completely, I shouldn't say completely, largely false. Um, and I do think something similar will H will happen with AI where some people for sure will like almost be in like encaptured and they will believe that like that's the most realistic thing that exists and then start compare people to that. But I, I think that you know, if you have that degree of empathy.

you'll be like, Oh, there's something off here. It's the same way as like even if you use a zoom call. Yeah, there's something off. It's like, I know you can't, you can't, it's hard to pick it up. But like, I'm not picking up all the signals. And it's the very little nuances that you probably just subtly pick up as well. Mhm. So, you don't think that the technology is going to advance quickly enough where to overcome those little things fast enough to capture all of us. You're not worried about that. I am definitely worried about that. Mainly because I think, I think for most people, it's easy, right? So, the thing about AI is it's, is it so beholden, at least if you think about like the chatbot styles, it's so beholden to what we want. And that's kind of like what people, I think, want in their, a lot of people want in their life or they need is like the sense of control. And this, the AI gives you this sense that like, I

can control this anthropomorphic thing, and that's honestly one of my fears, is that people get used to that. And what does it mean when, like, I get used to interacting with something that is beholden to only my views and interests, and then I go interact with a human who has their own interests? You think people want control? I think people want to be controlled. Um, maybe it's this form of control, though, to be controlled is a predictability, I guess. Yeah, people want the world to make sense, don't you think? Yes, yes. I think they also want the world to be, like, there's something about, like, preferring predictability over optimality. So, like, I've even felt it, like, when you have, like, you know, a mental health moment, you have friends who have mental health moments. The things that I've always seen as interesting is, like, your brain and your mind prefer to stay in a state that's familiar, even if it's worse. So, if you're in, like, a depressed state, you

almost would rather like stick in that than break outside of it, right? So, there's something about like things that are familiar rather than actually like better, and that, I don't know, there's like a bias towards, you know, you almost identifying them with those kinds of states. Yeah, there's research on this one. It's called status quo bias. People like things that are already there, and two, people like to have what they believe about themselves affirmed. They really believe them, even if they're not positive, so that is true. So, I like what does that look like in AI. Uh, yeah. Um, I mean, it's definitely interesting to me that people seem to love, like, you know, you talk to a lot of these things, and they sound like computers, and they sound like AI, but people love it because it kind of like, it's familiar, it's controllable. You know, if you start to add lots of personalities and these kinds of things, it makes sense in context, but I found it interesting that

like as we started developing these AI systems that people interact with, they all have this kind of like similar voice. It's a very AI voice. You can kind of tell that you're talking to an AI. Maybe that's intentional, but there is something there where like I think people have a preference to getting what they want from humans and from AI. But that could blend. Like I think that there's, you know, there's already lots of, you know, people in certain demographics who spend a lot of time on the internet and they start to identify like that's their favorite form of interacting with people. And so I do think that there's a reality where like as we move into the future, there will be people who bias towards that for whatever reasons, you know, whether it's the comfort of knowing that someone's not judging them, whether it's like the format that it speaks to you with that will kind of bias towards, you know, referring those types of interactions. Um, but on the other hand, I

always think that there will just be like, you know, there'll be a distribution of people, and you'll have some people who really don't like it. Um, and you know, like I was saying, the more that I interact with, and now I find it almost painful because I just pick up on so many of these issues that you're like, I can't even, I can't even use it at a certain point. And you know, my, you'd think that like, you know, I'm in the space, and I write like 20-page docs. I don't use AI for a single bit of it because it does remove that voice. And I do also wonder, though, is as people interact with it more, will they either identify the differences or start to conform to the things that they're trained with AI? It's the same as like, you know, if you interact with the same, you know, your partner, for example, right? You start to be biased by the communication because you're talking so much. You mean they're training you.

they're training you. I agree, right? Like, you know, your partner's probably like, you know, they have a preferred way of communicating. You get used to it, these kinds of things. So, I do wonder if, as people interact with AI more, that they'll kind of all converge. That's probably one of my biggest fears, actually, by is it causes convergence of, you know, I'm concerned about the exact opposite here. So, there's, I'm going to shift a little bit. So, we talk about AI. What you're describing, it's usually like dietic interactions, like I'm interacting with one AI, one agent. Yeah, that's true. But really, what people do is interact with multiple people, right? You interact in some community or some small group setting. And I'm surprised there's not more of that in AI. So, you're also in gaming. Like, my understanding, I don't really game, but my understanding is a lot of the gaming is about connecting with the people, and it's a community kind of experience. I'm so

there's two things. One, I'm really surprised that AI seems so focused on these one-on-one interactions as opposed to multiple AI AG creating a more immersive social experience. I love you brought out that's L what we do so okay good so good so that that's one other thing like the reason I worry more less about convergence and more about Divergence is if you could produce a more immersive social experience. Now, every body's having their individual social experiences like now. What I worry about with AI with VR with all these kind of um technologies that are expanding um what we can control about our social environment about the our physical Perceptions in the environment is that we all inhabit our own singular world. Like that is more frightening to me than like yeah you know that we all converge to the same experience. Well, my my mom's a a grade seven teacher and the one she that is really interesting is if you went by like 20 years. Everybody was watching like the same TV shows and they come to

class and they'd all be talking about, you know, Pokemon or whatever it was. And now, everybody watches their own favorite YouTube channel, yes, and it's the siloing of reality. So, yeah, like what we do is when we work with games, for example, one of the interesting things is like as people play through games, it's basically the same thing. You have a million people go through a game, and it's some differ is, but you're largely going to hit the same points. And so, one of the things that we think about is, you know, what does that mean for agency? So, you know, the way we interact with media changes the way that we feel agency in the world. So, if we see inert media that we can't change, it also gives you the sense that like you can't change the world. And so, to your point, one of the things that we do with, we want to do with games is how do you make it so that each person can actually influence that outcome? And as you add more agents into that, that you see, okay, I interact with

this one, and it has a cascade effect, right? And that's like, I love it. I mean, even in some of the stuff we've done here, it's the magic that actually happens when you do have those agents interacting because then you're also not just seeing that one interaction but the emerging effect of basically that interaction. And another thing is if your main controls that you have in a computer is like point and click or, you know, games jump and shoot. We're trying to see what does it mean if social skills, like interaction like this, are the ways that you actually interact with the games or technology and the agents. Like, that's a very different way of conversing or of dialogue than button presses, right? And I think that changes the way that you sense agents, the world, because I think the way that most people change the world is by speaking, interacting, interacting with other humans, not by pressing buttons. I mean, arguably, it's the case in some, yeah, you know. I don't, the other thing that's interesting to me is I.

don't think people have an understanding of the systems they exist in, right? People think about themselves as existing in like individual relationships, and they have a harder time understanding system effects, like I affect you, which affects your partner, which affects your partner's parents, right? That is a harder thing to grasp. But I think there's something that's funnily human about that, like you are also impacted by all these different things going on. Like, we had the person come and put on our makeup, and now I'm looking beautiful. That's affecting everybody else around me, like, Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, but I don't, I mean, how do you, how does that fit in? I just haven't heard people talk about it in that way, which is surprising to me, because that, I think, is what fundamentally makes human human, is interaction in complex social situations, in these like nested systems, yeah. And like, they all affect each other, right? Like, you think that your small activity doesn't affect whatever higher-level political stuff, but it's all aggregate, and it's all interlinking as

well yeah um I mean it's it's like the AI thing is interesting too because I often hear people talk about it as like this evolution right you have like you know singular cells to monkeys to humans to AI where it's like you could flip it right where it's like more like you know cells to organs to human to AI. That's a system overarching that just because it's trained on us and we do these things it we actually influence that system then it's kind of this now that people are interacting with it it has this interplay yes and I and that's interesting too when it becomes like you know AI isn't this like singular entity it is more of an institution or a system almost that is kind of overing everything else yeah and it's also weird because it's like our vision of who we are so we talk about AGI it's like I we don't even know what intelligence is and we we think we're going to produce something that has it. It's just an

interesting situation where we talk about it. As you said, it's natural evolution, but in fact, we're creating it, and it's not clear that we know exactly what it is we're creating. I actually think that one of the most interesting things is that we're starting to work on AI at a point where, like, I still think we're figuring out ourselves. Neuroscience is very early on in its days, and yet we're creating things that are based on our own intelligence, and we don't really understand even what's going on inside. And so, to your point on what are the effects, we don't really know yet. We don't know every year paper comes out that changes how people think about child-rearing, right? Like how to bring up a child well, like all those kinds of things. And now we're creating systems that will kind of be overarching other humans. Like, what does that mean? I don't know. I do actually

think you know. I happen to be in AI. We happen to be at this point in time. But if we could pause for a second, I think it would be good another few centuries of figuring out, you know, what we are and understanding that a little bit better before we created something that was in our image. Because like we're kind of just, you know, it's kind of like taking a photograph and like painting, right? It's like you're not actually getting the person and painting it, right? It's like there's something about the life that's missing there. So I do agree. I think that we're honestly kind of premature. But I think it's just how I guess, you know, life goes that things come out when they naturally should. So I mean, you work in AI. So what do you, what's the most exciting thing for you and like what's your hope for it? I think it's kind of back to that agency question. So I mean, the way we, you know, you read a news

story you read a book, you watch a movie, you watch a TV show. There's this, I mean, this is specific to like my domain, like there's something about a communication that we're having right now where like I'm adapting to the things that you say, to your body language, to all those kinds of things, right, to like, you know, the people in the room. We have all these kind of things. And so when you have AI able to sort of help that adaptation so that you have that agency in the things that you interact with. And I don't necessarily believe in like fully personalized media because I think we need a shared social context, like the reason we watch a movie because then we can all talk about it, right? We watch a TV show, we can all talk about it. But there is something about the fact that we're all interacting with these internet objects. And so, you know, the way that technology feels, you're on a screen, it doesn't change. You're in a movie, it doesn't change. You're on you

know watching Netflix. It doesn't change depending on what you do, and I think that changes the way that we see our own agency in the world. And so I hope with AI that one of the things that it does is kind of opens this door to agency in the way that we interact with media and technology in general, such that we do notice that effect that you have on systems. Because even if it's small, right, we're like, I take a certain action, and it completely changes an app, or It changes an experience. Maybe that helps us learn that we have an effect in the social systems as well, that we're affecting something to that effect. So you wanted to make our agency more transparent. Yeah. And do you think it does that? Because right now, I'm not sure it doesn't OPC our agency. No, I don't. I don't necess. No. Yeah. I agree. I mean, this is why I think also media and games is the domain I mainly focus on, and I think

it's interesting, especially because young people use it a lot. And so, like, I've heard very veteran game developers say, you know, how people interact with games kind of trains kids how they should interact with the world. So, even people who tend to be professional players in different games have different psychological profiles because they bias towards certain ways of interacting and seeing the world the same way, I guess. If you trained in something academic, right, you have a different way of viewing it. And so, if we make games and media in a way that you feel that sort of social impact as well, maybe it opens the door to another realm of understanding. But, uh, yeah, I agree that a lot of the systems that we have today give you maybe a false sense also of agency, where, like, we were talking about the AI systems, where you know you actually feel like you're controlling this thing, whereas maybe it's also biasing you and controlling your, but, you know, having some influence over you as well. Mhmm, so

where do you think things are going? So, there's obviously a huge race among some very, very well-resourced organizations over AI, right? You know, Microsoft, Google, I mean, of the biggest maybe, but um, and they are very quickly going to need to monetize it because this is what those companies are designed to do. Like, what do you foresee? Because I just, I look at social media as an example. I think um, at the time when it first came out, people were really excited as a new way to connect with people, to stay connected to people, you know, you couldn't otherwise catch up with people you lost contact with, that sort of thing. And it changed into something else um, in large part because the way it was monetized, I'd argue, like going the ads, focus on attention, like what's the trajectory of AI? I, I can't, you know, I'm, I'm taking guesses, we're all taking guesses, of course, yeah, I won't hold it.

to I W hold it to it don't worry. I mean, I think that the reality is we were kind of mentioning before about the challenges of scale, and when you invest tens of billions of dollars in something, you need scale. And I think that's one of the ways that AI is developed, and specifically even the models, the types of models we're using, the economic model of it, which is effectively the more compute you have, the better models you can create, the better models you can create, the more usage you get, the more usage you get, better. It has somewhat of a honestly monopolistic tendency, I think, in the way that actually even the architectures and the economy of it works. And so, I think it's almost inevitable that whatever AI systems are produced by these large organizations will be pushed to scale as quickly as possible. And there's maybe some pluses in that where, like, you know, sure, they're building in feedback loops. People can give their

input it biases it, but also at the same time, what does it mean when a single model is fit to a billion people, right? So, like, that's kind of what I meant about the converging effect, where, like, what happens when we are pushed to produce something that fits to, like, a billion people? There's a lot of diversity in there, and so, you know, we create these scaled systems that are fitting with the whole, like, trying to fit the whole planet. Like, does that work? And so, I think what we'll, you know, we're going to go through this phase where, like, yeah, you're going to have a billion people interacting with the same AI, and I don't know what the effect of that will be, um, and I also don't know even, like, the monetization models now are kind of you, you pay to pay to use these kinds of things, which are maybe okay, but certainly ads will probably end the equation. Also, what happens when, like, you want attention and you can, you, AI is much better than the algorithms you even

have on YouTube and Instagram, and you can start to capture that attention. And so, I certainly think it's going to be an interesting little bit here and now as we see these huge organizations spending tens of billions of dollars and the choices that they make to then monetize that and what that means for like how AI proliferates, which is not, you know, a lot of these. I know a lot of the folks in the organizations and their interest have never been in that domain, but at the same time, you're and, you know, stock market interest and whatever it is, then what happens? Like, it shifts it, right? We're in this, we're in a capitalist world, and that's kind of like, you know, what ultimately will change the incentives. So, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I am interested in, you know, coming from your background, you have a very different sense on it, but, you know, it's all this AI stuff is interesting, but, you know, when you think, you know, it's almost your first question, you know, what makes

us human and like as people just technology in general and specifically with AI like where can people find like the meaning in their life the values that they you know find true like and how will that change do you think we guess with like the Advent of these new technologies or how do you even have it see have have you how have you seen it change with the Technologies we've already seen come to life yeah I don't you know this is going to sound like a funny answer I think people are too worked up about technology personally I mean you know we had this conversation I think you know we've people have been using technology since we've been human right so paper was a huge invention talked about this the printing press huge invention computer huge invention internet huge invention AI great another huge invention and through all of that I think what you see in a lot of the biggest Technologies is the desire to connect with other human beings I think what fundamentally makes us human is our connection to other human beings our ability to engage with other human.

beings like consciousness and all these other things I think are necessary preconditions um but really what makes us human is connection and that is incomplete and I don't think we're close in terms of technology of replicating that I I don't I mean even way you described it it's like you you have this feeling of like this isn't right this is off like we and even if you felt like it was right it still would be off in ways you didn't quite get I don't think we're close though because it's designed to pull our attention away from other things I think it um impedes our ability to do what we all kind of want to do which is interact with each other right and it might um change the way we interact with each other in a way that that might feel less fulfilling and I think you see some of that and and and social interactions now some of that I mean recently maybe um Co was a was an issue but you know people feeling less comfortable in face Toof

face interactions right like people dating. There's no serendipity in hanging out, and you meet who you meet. It's like you're using an algorithm to try to present to you options. Like, that's a very different world. So, even that's prior to AI, and I don't know how AI is going to further influence that. And I guess just even like as the general point, like how core do you think the need for connection is in the sense that, you know, I've heard some parents say that like through COVID, their kids went through like a major change, like you know, these regressions and their different habits and these kinds of things because they weren't connecting with people. And then it's taken years to overcome that. So, I do also wonder like, you know, whether it's through technology or things like COVID or just like circumstances, could we lose that need for connection or that even desire, even if we need it, you know, we might lose the

desire for it and feel you know emotional drama as a result, but still not go for it. Like how core do you think it is, and do you think it's, do you think we're safe in that kind of need? Um, so I'm going to give you the most extreme answer, which is I think the true one, okay, that you will cease to be human if you don't have a need for human connection. Like I think you will be a physical person, but you will literally break down as a human being. And this is why in part um, social isolation or um, solitary confinement is considered inhumane, because people literally break down. You will start to have hallucinations, you will break down mentally and physically in the absence of human connection. Um, so I don't think there's any, there's no possibility in my mind of losing the need. Like you may get less than you need, and that will have negative consequences for you. Um, but I'm not worried about people not

wanting to be around people. Are you worried that like things like social media or AI or any of these things could give you that sense that you're fulfilling that need but not actually fulfilling it? You know, you said like it's totally true, right? Solitary comp is a great example because we need it. We absolutely lose our sanity as well as our well-being, but maybe we can, maybe technology can manufacture the sense that we're fulfilling it, and then over time we see these mental health crises evolve as a result. Yeah, that's a good question. I don't have a, I don't, I think it's unlikely, but I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. I think, um, I'll give you, I mean, I'll talk about meaning for a second, and I think of that as fundamentally tied to our need for connection with other people. I think sometimes we confuse, for example, our need for meaning with a desire for personal achievement, that we chase personal achievement, and what we're

trying to do is generate meaning. Um, so I think we can be confused, and we can have those needs displaced into less productive routes. Um, but I don't think it's going away, but you know, I don't know that it's the healthiest. Yeah, no, I'm totally lied. Yeah, well, thank you, Brian. That was an awesome conversation. It was great to talk to you. Yeah, it was really fantastic and super informative. Thank you.

What Makes Us Human in the Age of AI? A Psychologist and a Technologist Answer | TED Intersections

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What Makes Us Human in the Age of AI? A Psychologist and a Technologist Answer | TED Intersections

What Makes Us Human in the Age of AI? A Psychologist and a Technologist Answer | TED Intersections

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