so let me declare war against anyone that wants to maintain old legacy systems to keep their privileged position. That's my [Music] war. So my name is Marcos Nunes. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Noses Pay, which is the first decentralized payment network. So my background is in payments. I've been in this industry for 15 years. So I'm old, and what I've been seeing in the industry is the need for separating who owns the information. So initiatives like open banking, initiatives like GDPR, PSD2, PSD3, and so on, or equivalent in multiple places around the globe, are basically regulators and the banking industry trying to help people to navigate in a more competitive financial environment, right? So you're not stuck with an old bank or an old banker posing you tons of non-attractive financial products because you cannot move elsewhere with your data, and therefore you struggle. So we were born from that problem, essentially saying, well, with

blockchain. The data is yours or the data is public and carried throughout everything you do. So if you do a transaction here, here or in Brazil or in Thailand, uh, that transaction will remain there, um, and that will describe what happened with the origin and the end point, uh, uh, throughout the time. So that said, noses pay effectively do well created a payment mechanism that allows users to take decentralized balanced, uh, or funds out of a decentralized account and spend all the way to point of sale and without anyone actually doing custody in the meantime, um. Secondly, we separate Bankers from banking. Bankers effectively are service providers of asset management or treasury management. Banking is the right of every human being to effectively move funds, uh, under rules and restrictions of the different nations around the globe. And third, we basically do this with, uh, uh, well a known party or unknown party making sure that we respect the rules of a certain given country or economy. So you mentioned that you operate in in different countries or it's right it's a

decentralized system. What are the major challenges associated with creating a decentralized payment network? Uh, what we had, I think it was the most difficult part. I think now we're leaving the good part, uh, which would probably come new challenges, but I would say first perception. Um, you know, let's say somebody sanction and then what would the bank do? Freeze assets until that person is no longer sanctioned. In a decentralized network, you cannot freeze assets, but you can freeze the access to the offramp, meaning if I basically stop you from off-ramping in all over the world, your assets are frozen but with you until you sorted out your own problem. So explaining this without sounding dodgy and making everybody, you know, understand it was quite challenging, especially to regulators because in my view, regulators should protect the households and the families, uh, not by participating but rather making sure that the parties that are participating in a payment network or the banking industry or

whatever um respect rules of engagement and and I feel like the banking world back in the days or the banking as it was created they have a double role which is conflicting. I am in the custody of your assets and I will tell you how you can access your assets. That's very conflicting um so I think those two points were probably the most difficult aspects to navigate and then you have different countries different languages different regulations. Noses pay is officially in UK n EA as well issuing cards um but now 10 new countries we have just announced in uh dcom so Brazil Argentina Mexico Thailand Philippines Hong Kong Singapore Japan um I'm not forgetting anything so we we are operating globally and therefore we have to address and accommodate um um yeah the the different perceptions on regulation but effectively what happens as an outcome at the end always it has been till now is that we're able to show the difference between Banking and bankers and before we dive deeper into that I want to ask you what your main reasoning.

for partnering with a company like Visa was you have 130 million Merchants already connected internet n network um in my view allow me to use an analogy Skype revolutionized I don't know if this proper English word but you know reinvented phone calls every phone call that we do today is voice over IP because of Skype Skype has not imposed voice over IP compared to any other technology in fact what they did initially I had a Skype in and a Skype out account where I had a phone call a a phone uh number or a landline number that my parents would call me in a different country and it would ring in my computer and then I had a palm not even a Blackberry or or an iPhone where I download Skype and then my parents would call that landline number it would ring my app in my palm and I would answer and every time i' made phone calls I would go with my Skype out credits to buy calls for domestic conversations in different countries that entire thing was voice

over IP very dodgy. A lot of steps to get to voice over IP, and they basically went from that very complex to a new world where every call is from voice over. Did we remove all Telos because of that? No, Telos went from selling minutes to selling data to selling megabytes. Did we kill the phone providers? No, Blackberry lost its relevance because they did not understand the future of phones or what a phone is. In my view, it's exactly the same with what we're doing. Why Visa? Visa has 130 million merchants in one hand, Visa has maybe billions of customers on the other Spectrum. Why reinventing the will if the problem is using Legacy system and our fight is against the Legacy system. First, once we the new system, then we can basically say, hey, there's also new players for the new system. Are the banks doing what they're supposed to do? Are the web3 wallet providers doing what they're supposed to do? And I think that is where the new

world is going so we see our role as uh as that very clear um. I want to ask you just briefly could you run me through the user Journey um and and what so what exactly the process that powers um the system behind the scenes so to speak that allows me to pay directly using a crypto wallet for example. Yeah, so effectively you can Bridge your assets into what we call a spending account or checkings accounts for Americans. So our card is basically uh connected to a on-chain checkings account or a spending account and then you can bring assets uh stable coin assets to that account and that stable coin is going to be linked to your card and every time you transact in a point of sale well we're going to send an authorization and see if you have the funds and then authorize against the funds that you have in that account. It's 100% under your custody and the moment you're tapping or inserting with a password in the point of sale that means you are signing a blockchain transaction for that funds to

move to the next party responsible for that funds so you are going to send without having to do a second step to Visa via a third party, which is the iShare, and then via is going to settle with the next party and the next party and the next party, which is the acquir and the merchant and so on. That was kind of going to be my next question: what is the blockchain component in that system that you're describing? So we have the news that we had last week was about the partnership with Visa. The news that we're going to have next is about how do we settle in Stables all the way to the acquire, which is the party just before the merchant. Can you share us a bit of a sneak preview that if it's next week's news? We're getting there, we're getting there, we're definitely going to talk to you guys, but that is the a very important element, which means rather than taking the so what what happens today is you take digital assets

Stables, we convert them into Fiat. We deposit those Fiat into the issuer, which is the party that gives the card to the user. And then the issuer pays the Visa, and then Visa pays the acquire, and then the acquire pays the merchant. The way we're doing is you're taking the Stables as user, you pay directly visa from that stable to that point that reduces tremendous cost behind the scenes that people don't know. I think you've answered my next question there as well. I saw on your website that you have no transaction fees, no exchange fees, or even off-ramp fees. So you know the natural question that emerges from that is well how does it make business sense economic sense to run that system without any fees. We are a payment business. We make payment. We make a fee out of every transaction that happens in the payment Spectrum. So that 2 3 5% that you see at the point of sale it's normally splitted into three parties roughly and there is a bunch gr

granular splits in between apple takes a bit and many parties in between takes a bit but effectively you're saying the payment scheme gets a fee. The acquire gets a fee. The issuer gets a fee. We provide the technology to the issuer. We get a part of the fee from the issuer so there's no incremental fee. So for the user, we have launched a bank account which the card access defy balances in stable and then every every 100 euroc every 100 EUR e every 100 usdc is a 100 usdc in the card and you can spend 100 usdc in the point of sale um and the money in the business goes the other way around because that transaction will cost 2 3 5% to the merchant and then we get a piece of that so the user never pays clear um at least not directly. I understand so anonymity is obviously an important component of of services for many crypto native uh people and I'm I'm curious does your partnership with Visa uh does it create

any issues for crypto natives in terms of privacy or anonymity. Thank you for asking that question, 'cause we, I recently read a post where somebody started making a bunch of comments around privacy. In fact, privacy is resolved, it's not deployed. What do I mean with that? What do we need privacy on the blockchain? Address and the C data, they're linked, that's personal information from the users that cannot be explicitly revealed. So every time you're transacting in a point of sale, a blockchain with 100 numbers, spend 5 Euros in the point of sale, can that information be public, yes or no? Today it can. If we want to make that private, you can always deploy a layer two with rules around how to access that information. So rest assured that privacy is not the problem. I think making your C data and the blockchain connected makes your transactions visible to everyone. Do you want that, yes or no? I don't think so, and I think people should be careful about it.

think we have a great greater solution than the existing in the world today. If your data, if somebody takes a picture of your card and spend it online, it's equivalent. It's equivalent vulnerability. So I I don't think we have privacy problem. I think we have a maturity stage of do we need to enhance, uh, how do we hide transactions. I understand. Um, I'm just before we move on to some sort of, um, more generic questions. I'm curious. You mentioned an update, an announcement that you're sort of holding back on for next week. Are there is there anything you can share with us about the near future, um, any exciting updates. So I I I think this collaboration with Visa is not, uh, what normally it seems to everyone. I think Visa did a tremendous step to help the webtree community, um, via US because what happens is any wallet out there that contact us can have their own card and, you know, it's displayed metamask zerum Zer whatever and you then have an off-ramp.

instrument to transact in the point of sale against funds that are sitting or displayed in anyone's wallet. Effectively, we're making together with Visa every web three wallet a bank or banking um, and I think that's what we're going to elaborate further um, asset management or centralized uh uh programs that will have tons of rules and regulations on how do you know control funds uh for third party. We're trying to solve the other element understood the railways understood. I want to I want to zoom uh back into where we are right now and uh and quickly ask you what brings you to Amsterdam. Okay, cool so um, we have basically deployed the card. Card is fully functioning um, we slowly gave it away just to you know test the product as much as possible. Um, the card has a blockchain address where you can basically have your digital assets sitting on it. The card also has an ibun now so you can move Fiat money to that ibun and immediately you're going to display digital asset balances in

you're we're integrating more uh Native uh Stables, so that's probably something cool that we're going to announce soon as well. So then we become, you know, more friendly to use it everywhere. Um, I and we are in UK, and we are in EA, and we're now in these 10 new countries. So if you are one party from one of those countries, you should go to nos.com. And then, you know, onboard, order your card, get your card, and start transacting. And this is probably your best. And I've seen a lot, so I risk to have this on tape, uh, that we have the best FX multicurrency card in the world at the moment. So if you hold euros and you spend in dollars, and if you hold euros and you spend in any currency out there, you probably have the best, uh, card FX, uh, better than Revolut, sorry. And I've compared many times. I'll take your word for it. Um, we're at Money 2020. You mentioned it's not your first.

time at this conference no I've been in this conference since day day one which makes me very old again sorry to Sur frizzing that um it's a really cool event uh noses is as sorry as a web 3 player now for the first time in uh in Monday 2020. It's quite interesting because you see a lot of people talking about uh web 3, which is in my view that's the fight we want to win. Everybody should be talking about blockchain, should be talking about web 3. It is a technology that is mature enough and ready to scale, and I think we need to start using the technology to to kill as much inefficiency as possible. It can not be that in the year of 2024 we still talk about cobal and main frame. Sorry IBM, but it's it's not possible. Uh, so being here and seeing a bunch of colleagues that I've, you know, I met like I mentioned in the beginning, this feels like a high school reunion. It's amazing cuz I see

like how we can help a bunch of them. We created a product that is hybrid, a regular Bank can call us us today, and they can issue the noses pay card. And if they want to offer better effects using the blockchain technology, they can without mixing with the traditional Ledger. Maybe a bit of a tricky question to answer, but you mentioned um we need to iron out some of the inefficiencies. Is is is I think I'm paraphrasing what you just said, but there's a lot of companies, and you mentioned IBM, one of them, lot of large Enterprises working on uh either Enterprise blockchain Solutions um or or similar projects, but here at money 2020, there's also a lot of financial institutions that benefit from some of those inefficiencies, perhaps that profit from some of the uh the intermediation that happens with with you know crossb payments Etc. Um have you had some interesting conversations with other companies here about so let me declare war against anyone that wants to maintain old Legacy systems to keep their privileged position, uh that's my War.

uh, I don't believe I've ever met any bank that wants to maintain mainframe to keep their position. I think they want to maintain their regulatory position and regulatory custody. And therefore, he is my customer, and hopefully, he will contact us to talk about business. Um, you know, mainframe was defined in 1959 with application in over 144 countries. In this entire language was in 1966, widely, you know, implemented in 1977. Swift and Visa base 1, base 2 standards. So, we're 2025. We're asking an iPhone, Hey, iPhone, you want to do a payment transaction, please talk to Tocoo and mainframe. Otherwise, you can't. Every single human in the world is losing as a consequence of this decision. And it's very difficult to tell a banker, put a risk, the mama and the papa's money, and replace all your backend system for this new thing where you don't understand and it's not clear to you. So, when you kind of go from that angle like I'm not here to put you at.

risk. I'm here to kind of tell you if we start from this angle, you can actually slowly migrate to the new Ledger, which is on-chain, and there's many ways to do this in a good way. So, conversations I've been having this morning was all around how can this traditional dummy debit C help me to migrate to blockchain. And then I scope, I say, look, it's an account that basically talks to your traditional Ledger whenever the user is paying domestic transactions, and you do your entire accounting management as you do today. The moment they go abroad, you activate, please use funds sitting in the blockchain rather than my account, but instead of funding prior to the transaction, you only fund after you authorize the transaction. So, instead of moving funds through the Swift and all the 15 aggregators, you basically, at the moment you decide to make the transaction where the money is no longer belonging to your user and to your custody, then you deposit on-chain, and then on-chain, the

send to visa visa to everybody else so slowly you enabled a much cheaper ecosystem where you can profit from as a bank or you can decide to send that profit to your user and that's up to you. I don't think that's up to us right now to solve it. So it's a slow migration this migration that you're describing what are the what are the specific or rather most pressing issues that the industry faces in that migration. The Miser understanding and perceptions and ghosts around around crypto can you elaborate a little bit on that blockchain and crypto are not the same thing and I think there is so much misunderstanding and when I'm doing blockchain you know like it's almost like I feel like I'm a vampire and coming closer to them so you know it doesn't matter if Bitcoin or ethereum or those are choices that people will find the use cases and they will identify themselves there will be different tribes out there and like we

have today we have different banks providing different ways to attract customers. We have different companies providing different services to attract people. The world will always evolve and you're always going to be more demanded as a business to fulfill local needs of consumers. Consumers are becoming more intelligent but but we now need to kind of go back to um wipe this Legacy without creating the risk and and I think we are at that moment right now um so it starts first by understanding blockchain is not crypto. You have different types of applications and and and you have different types of cryptos. You have different types of uh digital money. You have more the open loop concept. You will have more the Clos Loop concept. You have different terminologies. So first yeah moving away this ghost this myths and and and and this this misunderstanding second common language in crypto Bridge means this in you know web 2 Bridge means that to kind of saying well actually what you guys saying is this. So that through 2.5

language. I think that's another uh uh element, and then the third element is um, as much as we have very knowledgeable people in the business world in a very mature industry, which is uh uh the payment ecosystem. We need those guys to migrate and understand now the new power of blockchain and what you can build on top of it. It's not about centralizing and hiding tech inside of your own uh uh house, and you know, running this uh black box inside of your house. And and and that culture, by the way, the banking culture traditional if it ain't broken, don't fix migrating into technology is commodity, patching things together defines a possibility of a business serving customers is actually your business. So that is where you're going to differentiate yourself. How are you going to serve? I understand and and as we we see this sort of increasing um convergence of trafi and and and crypto. I know you mentioned blockchain isn't crypto. Um, do you do you see it as a threat or an opportunity for for the current giant financial institutions?

tremendous tremendous opportunity. I think once they see it's really funny. What I've what I see in both worlds after learning so much about so my my co-founder is, of course, a true web three. My co-founders, they're web three guys. They were the first one to deploy the first node in Ethereum. They were early adopters of Bitcoin. They made probably most the beginning of their wealth in Bitcoin. So they're true like a genuine genuine fighters of a new world using web 3. And I consider myself exactly the same but from a different angle. People should have options. We should not tell people you have to do web3. I think web3 is doing tremendously good stuff. Web through web 2 has evolved and is mature in many ways. Visa is a is a great example of a company that is connected to billion plus users and 130 million businesses all over the world. And you can trust that if it's a VISA product and you go to that Merchant is

going to work. So why would you trash that? Like, I want to kill Visa. No, I don't want to kill Visa. I want to make sure that we use Visa to enable this new world. And hopefully, the world is going to want the new world. And then Visa needs to evolve their business model to address the new world. But trashing things would be... Imagine if every time in order for the world to fix their problems, we had to Atomic Bomb everything and recreate. I mean, we're living in a very interesting time when it comes to, you know, lack of tolerance and understanding different cultures. It's... We don't need atomic bombs to solve to learn about each other. We need to basically understand their differences and how do we build on top of them and how do we respect them. And that's it. Clear. I want to ask you about tokenization. It's a bit of a hot topic, exactly. And when we think about, you know, the tokenization of real-world assets or, you know, Crypton natives called it RW. What are your

thoughts on the on its impact on traditional financial institutions on the one hand and the crypto industry on the other hand. So, the beauty of crypto isolating themselves in an island in my view, uh, and building Tech. They were capable of doing really good stuff like very intelligent people creating a bunch of stuff, and the fact that they were isolated from The Real World, they kind of reinvented a bunch of stuff that the banking or the bankers were doing, uh, as a means to build their own offers. Uh, I am, uh, the believer of the the Theses of, uh, banking 3.0 where you separate Bankers from banking. Bankers are under attack. They used to do a lot of returns with people's money and providing very little back, uh, and and below the value of Lifetime, right, because the inflation per people, people's personal inflation is a lot very often bigger than the average inflation, right, um, so so you you're giving little and you you're getting a lot out of it. Web3 created mechanisms to

distribute this in a more democratized and, and, and, and, and more intelligent, maybe you know, but at the same time without the maturity of the risks that the bankers have learned multiple years. I think Regulators understand now and, and I think the, the main conflict that we need to resolve is not, not the, the how they're doing. I think the way they're doing is, it seems very, uh, solid is, uh, the responsibility of applying Tech and the custodial, um, and, and, and, and what do I mean with that specifically is if you're providing real world, uh, asset token, the tech to, to, to connect the, the, the, the, the real world asset so somebody can do something with it, that's one way of looking, so you need to be the gatekeeper that you're not doing this to terrorists, um, and you have the other part of it, which is I am taking the responsibility on behalf of someone's money like I'm taking the responsibility on behalf of someone to, to do something with that real world asset and then

trade and make returns, and then share returns back that and for both cases. By the way, we have sufficient regulation, and I don't think we need to reinvent the will. We need to start calling the right names to the things that are happening. Um, so I see Banks under threat, Bankers under threat, and I see that the web three guys have developed some really sophisticated great instrument that back in the days you needed Panama paper, uh, company in order to have it as a wealthy individual. Now anyone can have it, uh, while my money is sitting in my bank account, I get yielded, yeah, no, nobody could have that, uh, before. And by the way, when you get that, you spend with the noses pay card. So, so you needed to have a savings account in a bank, and that was very little, uh, uh, you, and yeah, and here we are. We've certainly come a long way. Just a second ago you mentioned the word regulation, so I have to, I have to grill on that. Um, I'm, I'm curious what your

perspective is on the politicization of crypto in the US. Now we're a little bit sort of in the election cycle and uh the ETFS uh specifically the ethereum ETF got passed uh rather rapidly faster than a lot of people expected and um we were in in Austin for consensus last week. One of the main criticisms of crypto-native people was that they're a little bit cynical and they think crypto is being too politicized. I'm curious you so you operate in in the E uh in the European Union and also um in Britain you said and 10 other countries. Do you think this politicization of crypto is going to come to Europe uh or do you think we have uh mature enough regulations to to prevent something like that now now let me use my old hat um Europe is famous for basically regulating before you know developing uh us is more famous about let it collapse and then we fix it um which means from a tech perspective us is slightly better because it allows you to go a little bit

beyond example FTX. And then you say, whoa, whoa, whoo, we have, we have to fix it. Um, and, and you probably Europe, you don't have those, those way too big problems. They kind of have a MAA regulation, a GDPR regulation, and e-money regulation. So you have all things kind of a payment service provider and a payment initiator. They have so many names for so many stuff, uh, that you even we get confused like, uh, yeah, if something so us our card functions in the US, why I want to start from that point 'cause we have stable sitting in in a Visa card, and you have a network in the US, and you have Merchants that accept Visa, and therefore you accept my card, and they get paid in US Dollars. Okay, that means our users when spending in the US against the law, the ones that do not live in the US. No. So in one hand we have addressed regulation sufficiently to allow this to happen. On the other hand, governments depend on banks s because they are the

buyers of the bonds, which are the instruments that allow governments to evolve. Then the banks are under trat because there's this new group that allowed very sophisticated banking to now be available to anyone. Um, and it's becoming easier and easier and easier to have access. Uh, I think people are just reacting out of fear. The entire politization, it's very interesting because Donald Trump probably 5 years ago in the crypto Community was more hated than loved. If you're now in 20124, you're heavily Donald Trump because Joe Biden sanction, you know, the most democratized, uh, answer, right? I mean what happened there was Republicans and Democrats decided how to pass the Bill forward for crypto. And then Joe Biden decided to say no to it. So in my view, like there's so many things going on that I don't think I don't take it specifically to crypto. I think the world is crashing and because information was a lot more controlled and a lot more

centralized to people. Now we have any individual have a voice. Bunch of narratives have a Michael, uh, Moore. I think was his name, right? The guy that was always creating the, um, crazy theories about, uh, stuff. There was one guy and he could only access media, which was like CNN or Fox. Nowadays you have millions of Michael Moores in YouTube telling what they think or maybe having evidences of how governments are not functioning anymore. And I think that democracy is at check. And I don't think the problem in the politics is directly related to crypto. I think it's influencing heavily the crypto users and the crypto community, but because also the founding pot came from banks and the crypto community is attacking banks. And yeah, hopefully I could express this is very complex question, but I, if it would be five, if it would be a world without YouTube and, uh, X and I'm pretty certain that the web 3 would be already a lot further. That's how I

look at this. It's because there is this sense that web 3 will kill the banks. Bank will exists for my dad. Bank is not creating the relevance to deal with my kids. My kids probably would trust a lot more Apple than the bank. So that says something about the life of a bank or Banker. You're touching on a very interesting topic here. You think web 3 would have been more broadly adopted if social media didn't exist in the way that it does. Because there's this sense that web 3 or or or you know crypto or defi is going to replace Banks. But you don't think that's the case. I definitely think web 3 will put the banks in a further check right. Let let me be that that's a very is something I I I I love this topic. I can talk about this for hours. But um think like this um web 3 is evolving technology. Banks are use cases and web3 can basically easily serve Banks because web 3 leaves open doors for banks not to centralize and to

control. That's where things collapse. But even that, you can create a bunch of agreements, uh, that you wouldn't have an issue, right? So let's say you have a private layer to you have a Clos Loop Network, so even that you can kind of find room for one another. But because we live in a time where you have open media and we lost trust in democracy, I don't if I ask all my friends, Do you trust what you hear on TV? It's 100% no. And I was raised on a Fridays or sun Sundays specifically, there's the 8:00 p.m. News until 10:00 p.m. that you kind of have the, you know, the sum of the week, what happened or the investigation about a murder or the most successful businessman, you know, that was really cool. It was shaping how we fought. And luckily, you know, we have social media. Luckily, we have now different voices. And because then entire establishment cannot control this and they, they could, this created a shock so.

the web3 and the bank could have lived together in a world where bank had the feeling they could control. But because the establishment now is under attack, there's zero trust in every party. So if a web three guy goes talk to a bank, it's like, No, you, I don't trust you. And this is basically how we're collapsing everything. So it's just that everything happened at the same time, which is great. It makes for a great conversation. That's certain. I'm curious, just very briefly, do you think then DeFi has the potential to replace traditional finance in some sense? No, I think DeFi is an option. I believe I personally would love DeFi to replace traditional finance because that means as a human being, I have assets that I used to put under my mattress. You know, like my Grandpa probably put a lot of money under his mattress as the most secure mechanism to store money. And now I can do this.

digitally, and I can spend. I can transfer. I can buy and do whatever, um, without having to, you know, have physical movement of cash. So, so I would love to have this as a, as a, as everybody sophisticated enough not to be dependent on anyone, but I don't believe the world's because maybe another angle to this very simple. I know you sell whatever you're a supermarket. I still use Visa to go to the supermarket. Oh, but you could also use Matamask. Yeah, but then it will be Matamask relationship with me, and at one point, Matamask will transform that relationship into something that you then will give something to Matamask. So the world never had a two-party model. There always been three-party model: the one that wants to buy, the one that wants to sell, the one that wants to intermediate to build trust. So TR trfi will always be there, and we're going to we. It has been too granular in a payment transaction.

have 12 participants minimum on average. 12 companies get a piece of every payment. The 3% out there, 12 companies will get a share of that. Why do you need 12 companies? Maybe it should be three again, so we should go back into three. But then again when you centralize, then you want to decentralize, and then you want to have 12 again. But the problem is everybody's not adding new things in terms of value, they're just adding cost because the other one is too lazy to evolve. The bank is too lazy to learn about iPhone, so they hire an aggregator. That aggregator now became too big, and they need another aggregator then to talk to the iPhone, and then the next aggregator, and then Apple says, By the way, every time you're using the iPhone, you have to pay 50 basis points in a transaction because that's the way I want to see the world. So it's really funny that we created such a big inefficiency. It's now time to clean it and let everybody

reinvent their roles again, and that's why you're here at Money 2020. That's why I'm here. That's what I think. We are creating that new path where we're welcoming every company from both sides. I am not here to say the banks are bad, the processors are bad, the issuers are bad, the acquirers are bad, the PSPs are bad. Everybody's welcome. We're bringing the card and it functions exactly the same for all of you. However, the one with the highest control can drive the next layer. So this card can help the banks to reduce friction and cost, and that will make that bank more competitive. That probably means three, four companies in between are going to be, you know, they're going to have to reinvent themselves. No, um, we want to make sure that we talk to both worlds. We are the bridge to make sure TradFi and DeFi, you know, can be used. I am building DeFi as an optionality, which I believe more people

in the world will want uh especially because they want want to regain control in a lot of things um and I don't think they are knowledgeable enough to understand that yet but I think it's becoming more and more available why you need to control your data and your funds and hopefully that can be offered by service providers that today are centralizers uh but they will see that they can also add value without having to own things they don't need to own you know back in the day you kind of own it just because you don't know like I don't know let me just own it now that you evolve you're going to see that the role of a bank is to bring competitive offers to help local economies me as a businessman in a country I need access to Capital so I can generate jobs and produce more pay more well pay taxes not more taxes but pay taxes those taxes then give better infrastructure so we can then hire more people and you know so they should not know the data and and use that against

me uh and I think that's the optionality that we can bring to so we can help everybody to kind of reset and then maybe the banks can be relevant to my kids they they have to do a lot of work let's wait and see it's been a pleasure talking to you thank you so much for being here. [Music] oh

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