a chance to explain to people in a kind way where I'm at and ask them to come along because where I take them on this album is a very [__] place. [Music] I suppose the best way to start is to tell you how much I really love the record. Thank you. That is the way to start. It really is. It's absolutely beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. One of the ways I've heard you characterize it is it is perhaps a more joyful record intentionally. I wonder if you could talk to me about that. Yeah, I feel like the first three records I made were the first two really um after in the Lonely Hour. I I was dramatic. I was early 20s and um I was speaking about heartbreak and unrequited love, and I loved it. I loved talking about it. I loved singing about it. I loved that that could be my thing. I I felt um like it became a little safe space to do that, um but then when I got to like 25 26 it

was it felt easier to go into studio and and be really negative and and talk about sadness. And this the idea of being happy in a song or expressing a joyful emotion or a sexy emotion or uh an angry emotion felt really scary and um definitely after that break in covid at that time of stillness um it really really it made me think that I need to step into my fears a little bit and I need to write some music that um shows different sides of me and who I am. What was scary about showing Joy. I think that joy for me. I think as as a queer person and I think a lot of people can can relate to this but it to to lean into the joy is it can feel quite like radical sometimes. And what was scary was the way that I moved my body when I'm joyful or the way that I dance um you know if they're doing that in front of thousands of people was always petrifying to me and I can do it in clubs I can do it with my family I can

do it with boyfriends stuff like that, but um, I guess there was a little bit of shame around the way that I moved my body. Um, when I was younger, but as I got older, I'm, I'm, I look fabulous. But I tell you what's funny though, is that you would think that it would be the opposite. You would think that, like, to show, uh, sadness or vulnerability or longing or loss would be a lot of people would characterize that as, as the scary thing, you know, yeah. But I think that's, that's something that people like you have to, you'd have to go back to my upbringing to understand why it's easier for me because my dad is very emotional and my mum worked. My dad stayed at home. My dad cries. My dad feels all the emotions. My dad's very, uh, emotional and open about his emotions. So, you know, me and my family, it's quite wild the way we speak to each other. It's very, very vulnerable and sensitive. Um, so other feelings like anger and

like opinions in that in the way that I've put them across in Gloria. Yeah, they've always been quite scary to me. It's lovely to hear that in that context though. Can we talk about the Love Me More or something, which I think it's first track one, right? Yes. And so the first words we hear on the record are have you. I'm going to read you. How do you feel about that? It's very, very comfortable for me. I feel you sound beautiful. This feels very natural. Yeah, lyrics back to you, have you, have you ever felt like being somebody else, feeling like the mirror isn't good for your health, every day I'm trying not to hate myself. Now, as much as you want to, Sam, I'd love to hear. I guess I was curious about where you have to get to in order to write that song. I had to get to a place of being comfortable in this concept that happiness and like a commitment to um, happiness is something that I have to work on every day for me. I've I struggle.

with mental health issues. I have OCD, and I get sad, and it can get heavy in my brain. So, every single day, I have to practice, um, you know, saying nice things to myself. And, um, it's got easier and easier over the years. I've had help, and I've had amazing family and friends, and practices, and access to things that have helped me. And I have this toolbox now I can go to in my mind, which is wonderful. But I just wanted people to know, in this album of joy that I'm making, um, I'm not in a place where I'm like happy forever and I'm just feeling good. It's a fleeting thing, and it's something that I have to work hard on and always will have to work hard on, you know. I don't like it when people preach this magic place you get to where everything's okay, yeah, forever more. I remember I said it said to someone the other day, I said, like, because I had a bad day, I think last Monday, like a pretty low day. I think it was just

because I didn't get enough sleep like, yeah, and I said to someone, I said, somebody telling me, are you telling me I got a balance sleep, booze, exercise, meditation like, and if one of those, do you know what I mean, like one of those things goes wrong, yeah, I'm, oh yeah, is that what you're telling me, really, it's what it is, right? I've been to someone saying two months, like, we are just like massive babies, and sometimes we just need a sleep, a [ __ ] um, some food, a cuddle, a burp, yeah, but you know what I mean, like, really, like, it's just, it's, it's something you got to work on. So for you, it's something you got to work on every, all day, every day, you know? Like, I have, like I said, I have OCD, so it's like I have, I've intrusive thoughts all day, every day, so it's like a real, a real practice, a rule, and an upkeep, and but I've, I've got to a place.

where I'm I'm cleansing that and juggling that and actually getting to enjoy life a bit more, which is fabulous, whereas before I I wasn't the thing would love me more that song and having it as track one it really was, you know, I feel like my career and the way that things have gone, um, with my transitional period of time before this record. I understand how people may be confused with me as an artist or fans of mine have been confused at times. I'm sorry I'm not sure, uh, I'm confused as to what they might be what you're referring to and let me changing my pronouns, me, my last album, you know, like moving my sound in a different direction, stuff like that, and I feel like love me more was the last opportunity and for me to extend my hand and even the sonics of the song they nod towards the older sound, um, and it's a chance to explain to people in a kind way where I'm at and ask them to come along because where I

take them on this album is a very [ __ ] place um, and it can be a quite a challenging place in with some of the songs and the spaces we get to so um. I wanted to start the album in a kind way, a welcoming way, a warm way, and say that we're gonna have some fun. So for it, for the people who uh, oh, maybe we haven't visited Sam Smith since dancing with a stranger or since stay with me or something like that, um, hey, you're gonna get get a different, you're going to get a different thing here. Yes, it's going to be a little different, it's going to be a little uh. I want to say ribald, like it's going to is that Ripple tree, it's going to be a little [ __ ] naughty, naughty, yeah. But in all seriousness, the track one is, I want you to know that all these things you're about to experience are happening because the person you're hearing and the person you care about.

love loves themselves, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. It is, and also that I'm good. I'm good, and I'm actually needed to tell myself that after the years I had of what I went through, you know, and because it was tough and I had to. It took a lot of courage to get to the place I'm at now. What I was going to say, I mean, you don't have to talk about this too much, but I would think that amongst the toughness, for me, coming out as non-binary would give you some of that goodness or kindness that you were looking for. Would I be right? I feel like the conversations around it so intense and there's, it's like all these, it's like culture wars and stuff, and it's, you know, these chats about language, and it's so insane, but the joy and the positives that have happened to me in my life are just wild, and I think that's really why I wanted.

to share with this music was to make people aware that because of that slight change in language around me from my family and friends. I feel so safe and so able to share this part of my artistry that's just so wonderful. You know, I feel free as an artist. I feel free as a person. And it's been nothing but goodness, you know. But to be fair to you, it's not just your friends and family and friends of mine who have come out as non-binary or have come out as trans or even just come out as queer. It would be more of a private thing. They would talk to other friends and their family. Um, can you speak to what it is, I guess, what it is like or what happens when you also have to make a public that is such a public thing? Yeah, well, mine was a weird one. I don't know if I've I have spoken about this before, but I send messages to people privately to do it privately, and somehow it got out, which was really, really a shame. And I had to to make a statement.

Um, because something was going to come out anyway, so I decided to make a statement. And to be honest, I've been living my life quite openly, I guess publicly, since I was 20 years old. And I've made loads of mistakes along the way, and overshares, and felt the repercussions of that. So I was able to deal with it fine. And also, I think it's nice that I've been able to share the position I'm in with other people so they can see what it's like and how the transitions into that will look like. And I'm not afraid of that. Um, but it was definitely challenging at times, you know. I've really learned to not read comments now, which is fabulous. You've learned to stay away. You can stay away from it. So now I'm like, I'm releasing this album now, and it's like I'm not as nervous before because I know I'm not going to be reading what other people think.

really is just about how I feel. Am I happy with it? And if I am, then great, put it out. It's right. Something else is that a you. You take the phone and tell me how it's going. Or is that like, I'm not going to scroll down. I tell my team now, just send me the good news. I love that. Just send me the good stuff. Can I get that? I'm so hard. I'm so hard on myself because like, I think all artists, yeah, all of us, right, we're all so hard on ourselves. Um, that I don't need to hear anymore, anymore, you know. I didn't need to hear negative things. Well, because the story, it seems to me like up to like the way we've been talking is that that is your, the story I'm hearing. Is a we, we could go through some stuff. We hit a place where people expect me to do something, and then I do something different. And Unholy is like that, by the way. Unholy is unbelievable, like it's unbelievable. And it, I mean, it's like the

biggest song in the world, too. It's wild, isn't it? It's really wild. It's, it's like, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. I'm, what I'm so happy about is that people, um, you know, the only other experience I've had like this was Stay With Me, yeah. And, um, I think that not everyone who has listened to Stay With Me has come along for the journey through my album process for album two, three. And so, some people would have just heard Stay With Me and then they just hear Unholy and that excites me because, um, I am not one thing. I am not one type of artist, you know. If I was to explain me as an artist, as a musician, or the type of artist I'd want to be, I would be talking about Madonna and Rihanna and people like this because I love changing things up and I love taking risks. And just when I think I figured something out, I, I throw it away and rip it up and do something completely different. And then in my albums, I think you can hear

that because I never stick to one genre. And um, and that's what I love about Unholy. But is that hard? Like, is there a moment? I'm imagining a moment in my head where it's like team Sam Smith, and you're at the table, and you have... I know it wouldn't be this, but you're like a CD player in front of you, and there's a big board room full of people who work either for you or, you know, work on the label and stuff like that, you know? And they're going, Okay, what are they going to play for us today? And you go like, All right, I know you think you know me, but check this out. And it's Unholy. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, that's what I have underground. Like, what, you know, this is not even... They... I wonder if they were even a bit surprised. It was like that. But imagine that, like, dragged out over a year. So it was... I've... I have to admit, I was... I was tired by the time that

song came out. I was really tired because the amount of pushing and that that song took was a lot. And you know, it's understandable. It's a it was a risk for everyone and um people didn't get it. People didn't understand it. Some of some of the most important people in my life told me it shouldn't have been on my album. And I it was this beautiful moment as an artist where it was enough for debate. And there was just something inside me that was like this is amazing. I love it. It's not about that. I think it's a hit or I think it's number one. It wasn't about that. It was about that it makes my my body feel different. And it makes me proud of what I do. And it's it's about it's a powerful song. So I really the music was the leader throughout this whole process. You were right. I was right. I was right. But I'm also wrong sometimes. Don't mean you were right with this one. I was. I was right.

with this one yeah I was let me just say how great you were so it's Grammy nominated oh holy is Grammy nominator for best duo group pop performance. It received 22 yes have a drink of water they received 22 million streams in its first two days. I think the other day I looked at it at like 684 million streams you and Kim Petras make history as the first openly non-binary and trans artist to hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100. It is sort of the biggest tick tock song in in in the world at the same time I mean this broadly they must what does that mean to you. It's mad it's mad it'll leave leave me breathless hearing these things it's crazy absolutely crazy I'm just so Joe is so luscious you just do having hearing that and it was just so fun to do I mean like it's it's the song was so fun to make and sharing this moment with Kim has felt really special um we've got on so well it's this

genuine, beautiful friendship that's blossomed, and being in the studio like, I don't know, it just feels so right. I'm so happy, I'm so happy. Like, if this is the only song that people ever hear again from me, I'm, I'm happy. It was a great song. I Really Love It. I wanted to talk, um, about the interlude, one of the interludes on the record, which was called Hurting, yeah. And I, I heard the sample or heard the recording, and I did, I did some digging around, right, because, yeah, I don't have the liner that's or anything with that. I just had the waves, right, yeah. So what I found was, I think a film from 1970 called Gay and Proud, yes, which was a film about one year after Stonewall, um, the effort, I mean, a lot of stuff happened, but to distill it, um, there was an effort to take, um, the queer Liberation movement into the streets and out of, out of spaces and more into the trees and more into

everyday people's lives and and the quote and I'll read this um having to lie is the saddest and ugliest part of being a homosexual. This is what the person yeah says that you sample when you have your first bad love experience variants you can't go to your brother or sister and say, I'm hurting. That's so intense. It's so sad. Yeah, yeah, it's so sad. Why did you want to include that? I chose it because it becomes it comes before a song on the album called Lose You, which is a song that was inspired by one of my friends who went through a breakup at the time that I was writing the song. And she was heartbroken and um it really, it just, it triggered a conversation in the studio for me about um that first heartbreak, you know. And I think for everyone, your first heartbreak is horrible, but I really do think for queer people it's exceptionally painful because um you don't experience these relationships in school, you don't have those little, well maybe you do now, which

is such a wonderful thing, you know, with like these amazing Netflix shows. I'm seeing it's so beautiful to think that kids in school, when I was, you know, 12, 13, could be having these open, lovely queer relationships. Yeah, but but in the past, you haven't been able to, and you've had to hide. And you know, even when you get to become an adult, you, you love someone, you have to hide, hide, and you have to lie. And I think it's just incredibly painful. And I think that um, a lot of the pain of being a queer person can come out when you're heartbroken. And I think it definitely did for me and my first big heartbreak. And when I heard that quote, it was actually a news anchor said it on the first of a gay pride. And his voice in it is really monitoring the way he says it. And I find it really haunting. And but I just never heard it said like that. And I think it's, I think it's so true. I think it says you're being forced to lie is a horrible

thing would that have been when you say that was sort of my experience with my first heartbreak because I I also want to talk about it in terms of like how many people were in your town growing up. Oh I grew up in a village. Yeah how many I was the only guy in the village um it was I don't know how many a couple of thousand right. Yeah yeah like really small it was just a pub not a shop and I know I'll tell you something yeah I would know people who who come out since as so I'm from I'm from a place with a lot of small places right I'm from my I'm from the biggest city in my Island and it's 250 000 people oh wow so all the other communities are you're you know right yeah and I would know people who were from communities of 100 200 300 people wow who who have since come out as non-binary or trans or or gay or you know or queer and I suppose that quote gave me pause.

to that um, I'm perhaps embarrassed to say I never thought about that before. That you have to hide your first heartbreak. So, I wanted to talk about that in the context of a small being from a smaller place. Yeah, so that was your sort of experience as well, yeah? I mean I actually didn't really have my first boyfriend until I was like 22. Yeah, so I was outbreak doesn't have to be. No, I mean this is what this is what my first album was actually in the Lonely Hour. I think that this is the beat of music, right? People will hear it and they'll hear stories or songs, and you know like my songs stay with me that people play at weddings, but it's about one night stand, it's not, it's not about that, but I love that they can play a wedding. So music, I'm not dissing this because music is beautiful and how it does this, but in the Lonely Hour my album was about me being in love with a straight man and how nothing happened, we didn't kiss.

each other. We didn't do anything. I was just completely infatuated with him, and that was my first experience of love growing up in school. And fancying anyone, I was in love with these straight guys, and I would just imagine what it would be like to be with them in my mind. It's quite mad how your imagination is so powerful like that, and I think a lot of queer people go through that. And if you listen to my first album with that in mind, it's, you know, I think a lot of people think that I came out after my album, weird stuff like this, but I, it is from a queer perspective. And I think that that album just shows that it's, yes, my music's from a queer perspective, but my music is for everyone, and everyone's felt those feelings, you know, even if you're not queer, you know, everyone feels unrequited love in school and those moments and throughout their lives. When did you figure out you were

um good at singing. I don't know if I ever figured it out. I was told I could tell you. Let me tell you now. No, I was talking. I can tell you. I was told when I was like eight, my dad noticed me singing in the car and then sent me a singing. What were you thinking? Do you remember any idea Chaka Khan always, yeah, yeah, or Whitney or Mariah or George Michael big voices, yeah, yeah, and he and he says to you, I think you got something. Yeah, he said, You. They'd say you're good. And then they sent me to my singing teacher and then she said I was good and then I would just pushed to sing in front of people and I did enjoy it but also I was petrified all the time but I did notice that when I would sing people would listen and it was it was it was you know it was a crazy feeling it was it was nice actually because I was so bad in school at everything else and I was so like I wasn't naturally like the

smartest kid. Or like, you know, I was offered at sports. All this stuff. So it was nice to be good at something. So you were, you were bad at sports. You were bad at school. You were kind of maybe a little quiet. Like you weren't, you, oh no, it's very loud. Oh, drama queen. Very loud. Translate in trouble for chatting with friends. See, the reason I thought, maybe the reason I thought, maybe that wasn't the case because you were like, oh, finally, people paid attention to me when I was singing. So I, that's why. Oh no, no, but people pay attention to me in like a positive way. They'd be like, shut up, Sam, right? Yeah, I was like, yeah, I was loud. Great. Yeah. And then, then you have to make the decision, I suppose, that like, hey, this thing that I'm good at, I'm gonna make it my life. I'm gonna make it my job. Yeah. That happened really young. It was very odd. I wonder sometimes if my OCD is like mixed in with it because I was very focused from like the

age of 12. I remember like planning my career out like of what I would do what did it look like then it was at 12 years old. It was musical theater, okay. I was like, I'm gonna be in musical theater. I'm going to work really hard at 15, 16. I'm going to leave school, go to college, you know, train really hard in some sort of college that I'd get into, and then I'd be in the West End or and eventually hopefully maybe one day Broadway. Alright. But then when I hit 13, 14, I just realized that all the parts I wanted to play were actually female parts and there wasn't a lot of like parts for me. And then I started to fall out of love with musical theater. And that's when I'm about 14 years old. My original singing teacher was this thing that is a single songwriter, a jazz jazz singer. And I just go and see her do shows and I just fell in love.

with this idea that I could travel the world and write songs. And I could. And that's what I do. I would just sing about my life or about things that I'd see around, right? And I could travel the world and do that because when does the latch thing happen? When does Latch, I should say, for people? Let me catch people up. You're introduced to the world in a song called Latch by Disclosure 2012. Yes. Um, you don't even have an album out at that point. No, I was 19. And that, that's everywhere. So that must give you a glimpse of like, oh, this can actually get pretty big. Yeah. Well, that was like the beginning of like that after Latch, it was just like straight away. I was like in the space of a year where I was working in a bar and then I was touring around the world. How long after that to Stay with Me happen? Like a year and a half after that. Like it was very all very very quick. What, um, a really good thing about it.

happening that quickly. And what's an uh, a not so good thing about it happening that quickly. I think a good thing about having it quickly is that I got to stop working in a bar really fast. It was always like, it was like I remember I was like cleaning toilets one day and then like four weeks later I was given my notes in so that was stunning fine, that was fine, yeah I enjoyed that. Um, I got to and I could start paying my rent properly, which was nice. And the negative was that I think that the negative was that I was young and I hadn't experienced some really key things that I I needed to like boyfriends properly, going out, meeting queer friends, stuff like that. So I had to, I've I've had to do that whilst being well known and and you know the Dynamics in your relationships change when you when you experience Fame. So dealing with that at 19, 20 was tough. You don't get, you don't get to actually experience the things you're writing about. No, but you

do experience really adult things. It's wild and there's so many amazing things that you experience. Um, but it just it's hard because I've always said this. I do think that as queer people you grow up a little bit later in some ways. Yeah, um, in terms of like romantic experiences and friendships and things like that. So yeah, it was just a catching up with itself but I hit 30 last year and I really feel like everything's caught up which is fab. So the record's called Gloria. Yes, there's a song called Unholy. Yeah, there's a song called No God which by the way is not about there being no government. It's about, you know, someone who is complex. Yeah, you're not exactly you're not everything you think you are. And then there's the song Gloria which starts not with your voice but with I believe a choir. Is it this beautiful choir that we found and we recorded it in the church near where I went to school as a kid and it's

Um, I know, I know, I know, from reading that Gloria is also like sort of someone you can take on when you need to be brave. But Sam, I see a pattern, yeah. And I know you grew up in the church, you grew up a Catholic, I think, I guess. Where are you with listening to all that? I couldn't help but wonder, like, where are you spiritually, of course? Now, I'm not, I'm not religious personally. I'm more of a spiritual person, that's what I'm, yeah, yeah. And I think that what I've noticed, it's weird because it's not an intentional thing, but you know, even my family, we're not very religious, but my family, or my grandparents, everything brought my mum up in Catholic school, stuff like that. So it naturally just happened with me as a kid. And what I've noticed is these big feelings in life that I feel, um, these, there's certain words I go to, and it's because of my upbringing and the places I've been in.

and what do you mean like words like Gloria and God and praying and all these things. They've come up in my music and even like the sound of a choir. You know I grew up singing in the choir and it's all coming to my music. But I am more of a spiritual person and this Gloria for me. The first time I ever heard the word Gloria would have been glorious Deus in the hymn. But then Gloria is also what I hear in the gay bars. That's amazing song by Laura Branigan. Gloria and you've got Gloria Estefan. You know and so that word Gloria became a really mixed. It's a mixture of things for me and I do think there's power within me re-writing what those words mean to me. Yeah is there. Is there more and again I'll be. I'll be cautious about the word I'm using here. Is there more spirituality in not more religion. Is there more spirituality in your life the better you feel. Yes actually and for me Gloria this

album. You know, there was, there's, I, there's a faith that's returned in my life for sure. Um, even like just looking up at the moon or the Stars sometimes now, I feel like I've, I've regained a little bit more faith in the world or something, in something, you know. And I, I do feel like it's a key part of feeling better within yourself and within your body. Um, I lost faith for a minute, and it was, and life felt a little bit hopeless. And now I have a bit more faith back in my life. Not religion personally, and there's no judgment at all. Um, but for me, it's just faith that everything's going to be okay. And I call that feeling Gloria. It's an absolutely beautiful record. Thank you. When you look back at everything that led to it, what are you most proud of looking back on this journey even? Um, oh my gosh, I'm what I'm most proud about, and it's something that I that I really want to drive home in my

shows is the feeling of Ensemble like. I really struggled in those years of covid to not play music with the people I love and to not be in the studio. And I think we all did, you know. We all realized how much we need each other. And with this album, I really, it was so important to me to have live musicians on the songs, to have the incredible singers on there with me, to share the music with people. And so I'm what I'm proudest of is that in my own selfish issues in my life, I've realized that the key to feeling better is asking for help. And the key through your album sounding better is asking for help. And it really just does take a village in life, you know. We need each other. And I'm excited. It's almost like my musical theater Roots have come back a little bit. And I'm so excited to like have dancers on stage. And I want to feel, you know, like I'm part of a chorus line. And I'm excited about that in the

future for my music. I'm a big believer, and I've read a lot about this. By offering love to ourselves, we are, in effect, offering love to everybody else, and I feel so much love from you. Oh, thank you off this record. Thank you. Um, and I mean it, and I do appreciate your time today, and thanks for making the time for us. Thank you. I love you. So beautiful. Thank you. [Music]

Sam Smith talks Gloria, self-love and why queer joy can feel "radical"

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