Egypt has a large population, with an average of 2 million children born each year. In fact, the president has stated that population growth is a security threat that feeds terrorism. This indicates a bleak outlook for Egypt, as the population is simply too high. Therefore, the country is currently focused on reducing its population, which is the most important national agenda for Egypt. 

Hello, this is Lee Seung-won from World Close-Up. To begin with, let me share some characteristics of the country we will be examining today. It encompasses both deserts and the Red Sea, and is famous for its pyramids. Egypt, with its thousands of years of historical sites, feels familiar yet remains an unfamiliar place. Recently, it has also been mentioned as a mediator in the Gaza conflict alongside the United States and Qatar.

이집트에 대해 다시 한번 주목받고 있는데요. 그래서 오늘은 이집트가 어떤 나라인지, 또 최근에는 어떤 이슈들이 있었는지 최고의 전문가들과 함께 알아보려고 합니다. 안녕하세요, 두 분. 간단하게 자기 소개 부탁드리겠습니다. 먼저 교수님, 안녕하십니까? 서강대 유럽의 고대 박현도입니다. 반갑습니다. 

안녕하세요, 저는 이집트 출신 방송인 세입니다. 두 분을 유튜브로 너무 많이 염탐하고 있었거든요. 만나 뵙기를 너무 고대했는데 드디어 오늘 만나 뵙게 되어 감사드립니다. 

저희 오프닝에서도 언급했지만, 이집트 하면 가장 먼저 떠오르는 것은 사실 어마어마한 유적지입니다. 사실 죄송하지만, 저는 아직 못 가 봐서 사진과 영상으로만 접했는데, 이집트가 어떤 나라인지 설명해 달라는 요청을 많이 받으셨을 것 같습니다. 한국 사람들이 보통 이집트에 대해서 무엇을 궁금해하는지 궁금합니다.

Are you really curious? First of all, is it true that people still ask if I ride camels? When will that question ever go away? In fact, during the big festival, I didn't ride a camel either. We are more familiar with riding donkeys. Since we live near the Nile, we don't engage in much nomadic life. However, it's very difficult to summarize Egypt in one word. To put it simply, it is a Middle Eastern country with a very large population. Often, people say that the Middle East is like China. At one time, Egypt had the largest population on Earth. Compared to other countries in the Middle East, especially those nearby like Qatar, the UAE, and Kuwait, Egypt has an enormous population. Moreover, the greatest pride for Egyptians is their history.

Isn't it so that a country that boasts a lot about its history actually has a large population and so much to explain? I understand. Then, it might be better for someone who is a step away rather than someone close to me to explain things more succinctly. Professor, what explanation do you have when it comes to Egypt? Egypt is, in fact, so crucial to Arab culture that without Egypt, Arab culture might have disappeared. Oh, really? Yes. Because when we think of the Islamic world, we often only consider the Arabs. In reality, the most powerful cultural influence in the Islamic world has been Persian culture, which has largely overshadowed Arab culture. However, Egypt has preserved the essence of Arab culture. So, without Egypt, the true essence of Arab culture could not have been maintained. Is that so? Usually, we refer to the Middle East continuously, but people...

I don't know. I don't really know that well. And Egypt was not under Mongolian rule. Oh, is that so? Yes, the Middle East was completely dominated by the Mongols, right? Egypt fought against the Mongols. The Battle of Ain Jalut was fought there, and in 1260, the Mamluks won and defeated the Mongol army. As a result, Egypt was freed from Mongolian rule; it was not under their control. Egypt is a country with its own essence. However, we don't know much about Egypt, and there are some confusing aspects just from its name. The name Egypt comes from the Greek name that the Greeks transliterated from what they heard from the Egyptians, which was Aigyptos. It was difficult to pronounce, but later it became Egypt. And the Arabs referred to Egypt as Misr.

They called it Copt and wrote it in Latin as S. In English, it became Copt. So, people who believe in Christianity will know this; they say Copt, but that is a mistaken term. The Coptic Church is the Christian church in Egypt, and Copt, Egypt, and Aitos are all the same term. Let me briefly share a more surprising story. In fact, the Mamluk army, which the professor mentioned drove out the Mongol forces, originated from Egypt. The word Mamluk actually means slave. Egypt is likely the first and possibly the only country in human history that was ruled by slaves. The Mamluk period lasted about 600 years, during which Mamluk slaves governed Egypt. President Nasser, in 1952, overthrew the monarchy that had existed since ancient Egypt and established a republic.

It was established, but from Cleopatra until Nasser, there were only foreigners; there were no pure Egyptians. Now, for the first time, Egyptians regained power during Nasser's time. Foreigners came in and provided us with food, clothing, and housing. If they liked the regime, they would ask how much it had been for such a country. I feel like if I don't mention this, it would be a bit disappointing. There is a general that Muslims admire the most, much like Admiral Yi Sun-sin. Who is it? Saladin. Ah, that's right. Saladin established the Ayyubid dynasty in Egypt. He had everything good. The moment I mention Yi Sun-sin, you can feel the level of recognition and respect. Yes, in the Arab and Muslim world, he is like Yi Sun-sin. However, he is not an Egyptian. No, he is an Egyptian; Egyptians see him as one of their own.

You seem to be misunderstanding. Oh, I see. The reason is that he established his kingdom in Egypt and lived as the Sultan of Egypt until the middle of the day. He is Kurdish, but sometimes people confuse him with Arabs. In fact, he is not an Arab and does not belong to the Arab ethnicity. However, when you talk to him, it all fits well, and Egypt is a country that accepts everything. Welcome to Egypt! So, let me ask again. I did some Googling today because I was looking forward to our meeting. The full name is the Arab Republic of Egypt. This name started to be used officially when it became a republic. The term Arab is included because it signifies the political identity of the Arabs. Among Arab countries, there is...

There are several countries where the word Arab must be included, with Saudi Arabia being a prominent example. This is done to highlight the Arab identity. I wanted to ask about the name Arab Republic of Egypt. The word Arab stands out the most to me. However, geographically, it is located in the northeastern part of North Africa. Since the term Arab is included, I am curious about how the people of Egypt perceive their own identity. When we discuss politics, we often refer to it as an Arab country, and culturally, we talk about Islamic Arab culture and identity. I believe Egypt is geographically part of Africa, especially when it comes to football; our rivals in football are all from Africa, while we compete with Asia.

It's only during special events, either in Asia or with Asia in the title, that we officially connect with Africa. So, we are only an African team when it comes to football. This is important. If Egypt is categorized as Asian instead of African, it will be difficult for us to qualify for the World Cup. They are a strong team, a very strong team. This is the most important thing, and we should be grateful for this. Today, we have addressed this issue. 

I have gathered some preliminary information about Egypt. I have heard of the country, but the reason we invited experts is that there has been a lot of news related to population issues. In fact, there are limitations to the domestic issues, but regarding Egypt, there are articles about the population explosion and its implications. How serious is this problem in Egypt?

Egypt has a large population. In fact, among Muslim countries, Egypt is the most populous Arabic-speaking nation. Following Egypt, Turkey is the most populous among the countries that speak Turkish. Egypt's population is close to 100 million, surpassing that mark. Not only does it exceed 100 million, but every year, an average of 2 million children are born. I remember in 2020, there was talk about Egypt surpassing 100 million, and now, about four years later, it is said to be around 116 million. That's quite astonishing. However, the bigger issue is that while the population is large, people in Egypt primarily live around the Nile River, which Herodotus referred to as a gift. The Nile is so favorable that the population is concentrated only in that area.

95% of the population lives on only 4 to 5% of the land, so can you imagine how densely populated it is? If I were to mention, for instance, that I was born and raised in the delta north of the Nile River, I only ever saw fields. Until I was 18 years old, I had never seen a desert or sand. Oh, I see. It seems like we need a bit more explanation. In fact, about half of the population lives in the Seoul and Gyeonggi area. As a result, various infrastructures are concentrated there, and naturally, more people tend to gather. This includes job opportunities as well. So, is there any effort towards regional distribution policies, as we would call them? No, there are efforts being made. They are trying to create new cities in the outskirts.

Now, we need a lot of resources, and people don't easily overlook that. Therefore, new cities keep being developed, but the environment is quietly improving. It's so good because there's the sea, water, and a sense of stability. However, what's more important than Egypt's population distribution policy is the population reduction policy. There are just too many people. It's interesting because we often say that population is national power. When we deal with countries like China, especially Vietnam and Indonesia, they have a large population, particularly a young one, which makes us envious from our country's perspective. But isn't it true that Egypt also thinks having a large population is good? The issue now is that the population is so large that it has become a problem. Think about it: when I was in middle and high school, our country had a policy of promoting childbirth, encouraging families to have more children.

Do you remember the 90s? Back then, if you went to reserve forces training, there was a car that would come to collect you. If you had an injury, they would send you home without having to do the training. That was the situation in our country in the 90s. Up until the 90s, it was like that. We made mistakes during that time; we shouldn't have allowed it to happen. I thought you might bring this up, so I wanted to mention that our country's campaign in the 60s was to encourage families to have three children with a three-year gap between them. There were slogans promoting this. In the 80s, having just one child was considered a big deal. If you had one, it was like a celebration. My father had 13 siblings. I have one younger sister and two older sisters. The number of children has drastically decreased, hasn't it? It’s quite noticeable.

We all thought that if we didn't have children, we would live well in the country. Having more than two children was considered ignorant, but now it's a completely different story. Egypt is currently facing the same issue. The government thinks there are too many people, but there aren't enough jobs, and the unemployment rate is rising. So, they are trying to reduce the population by any means possible. Back in 2014, the president even asked people not to have more than two children. This conversation has been ongoing for about ten years, and it seems to have started in Egypt around 60 years ago. Since the 1960s, Egypt has been somewhat aware of the population issue and has implemented various policies to address it. Initially, they relied on religious influence because Egypt is a country with strong religious aspects, which affects the public's perception.

To make a change, the power of religious leaders is necessary. These religious leaders have begun to tell the public in churches and mosques that having many children is not the blessing they think it is, and this perception, which has existed for hundreds of years, has not changed. They have started to encourage people to have fewer children, suggesting that if they do, there will be various benefits and incentives. This time, President LC has been somewhat brave in addressing this issue directly, unlike previous presidents who spoke about it indirectly. When discussing why facilities like education and welfare are not sufficient, he stated that he could question the public about the birth rate as well.

You have the right to question me. If you don't adjust the birth rate, then don't complain to me about various economic issues. The country's situation is that we are trying our best to make a leap forward. As the professor mentioned, we are building new cities everywhere, but we have no money, and economically we are very weak. If you keep having children, those children will need at least 16 years of education to become part of the workforce. How can we do that if the country has no money? If we don't have children, I will prepare everything the country needs from that point on. This is a bit of a complaint that the president expressed. Since then, we have entered an era where we are being directly reprimanded. In fact, the president has said that population growth is essential for national security.

It's a threat. I think it's that serious, just like Sam said. What kind of situation is it? The country is preparing for something, but there needs to be a suitable population; otherwise, it leads to debt. The debt is so high that the country can't handle it. So, in 2018, they probably started officially saying that having two children is enough. They had talked about it before, but from 2018, they officially began to discourage having more than two children. However, that's not going well, is it? Someone mentioned that it's been about 60 years since this issue has been around. Is it really accumulated over decades? This needs to change, and the current president is now starting to drive this change. They see no hope in this situation because there are too many people.

No matter what you do, you don't get into debt. Yes, yes, so right now in Egypt, we have to risk everything to reduce the population. Yes, that's the most important national issue in Egypt right now. So, it's like this: because there are so many children being born, various economic situations are worsening, the unemployment rate is high, and all infrastructures like education and healthcare are something we cannot keep up with. So, it's a comprehensive problem. Do you remember when we were young, did you ever see the day and night classes in elementary school? Yes, I did. I'm a bit older, I was born in the 1970s. So, we had day and night classes. In our class, there were 100 students in elementary school, and we split into two groups of 50. It was like 100 students in total, and then another 100 students in the evening. There were an enormous number of students. In that incredibly large time, think about it as one person.

One in a hundred people cannot receive basic human rights; they have to survive on their own. Yes, I understand that. I can fully empathize with how Egypt feels about this. Since we experienced what it feels like to have a large population when we were young, we understand the situation Egypt is currently facing. The truth is, it’s not that they aren’t building schools or hospitals; it’s just that even if they keep building, the number of children keeps increasing, so it’s somewhat unmanageable. Currently, Egypt has major cities, notably Alexandria and Cairo, and in each of these large cities, new cities are being built next to them. The names aren’t even creative; they simply call them New Alexandria, New Cairo, New Mansoura, New Tanta, New Port Said, and so on. It seems like they aren’t putting much effort into it, does it?

They even built a new capital to relocate the capital city. Do you know what its name is? It's called Shin-Sudo, which is very creative, I genuinely mean it. Seriously. Anyway, they are making efforts to secure that territory and space, but the birth rate is so much higher that they can't keep up. The matching is not happening. Is it somewhat cultural and religious? It seems that the belief is still prevalent that having more children is a blessing. Yes, it's clear that this perception originates from religion. One of the Islamic texts states that the more children you have, the more blessings you receive. And once a child is born, it is not human beings who provide for them, but God, so it is guaranteed, it is provided. Right? It gets better. There is a saying in Egypt that no one dies of starvation. This is a saying that people commonly use.

There are no people who go to bed without having dinner. Don't worry about eating. If you are not concerned about eating, it doesn't matter how many family members there are. Moreover, there are still countries where child labor exists; it hasn't disappeared yet. I heard that in the past, Korean society also had the perception that the more children you have, the stronger the family's economic power becomes. That mindset still remains, so we are trying to change it as much as possible. Yes, the president has come to this point because of the situation. However, as you briefly mentioned earlier, there needs to be some incentives for people to have children, but are there any practical policies? For ordinary citizens, the subsidies they see, for instance, if you have a third child, you won't receive those subsidies anymore. So, in fact, that subsidy is something that the citizens...

We're talking about items that can be obtained at a more discounted price, such as rice, beans, sugar, and tea. These are very necessary, especially for rural areas or low-income families; they are essential goods. Since I was young, I used to run errands for my grandfather and would often go to get these items. While they weren't free, they were still provided. However, now, with the policy of not being able to give more if you have more children, it's different. My grandfather had 11 children, and he would get items according to the number of children he had. But now, starting from the third child, no more items are provided. I think this has been one of the most powerful measures in the last 60 years. Professor, it seems that this policy is showing some effectiveness now. In 2023, it was reported that the rate dropped by 1.4%. Yes, when I read the report, it mentioned the government's efforts.

One of the policies that has shown effectiveness is the distribution of subsidies, particularly the provision of contraceptives and birth control pills in agricultural areas. I believe this has been successful. However, when I met with Semi, she mentioned that it’s not necessarily the case. I think that rather than seeing this as a success of the policy, it’s more about the fact that there are many children being born and the economic situation is worsening. Young people are somewhat losing the fantasy of having large families, which was a perception passed down by parents and housewives. This ideal has somewhat collapsed. They think, If I have a child, I can’t earn much outside, and my wife can’t earn much either. How can we send our child to a good school if we have a second, third, or fourth child? How can we provide for them? This leads to a sense of hopelessness or a reality check. Therefore, I believe that...

The reason people aren't having children, in my view, isn't solely because of the lack of subsidies. Overall, the global birth rate is declining. Nonetheless, there is a significant issue with the rapid population increase due to the high birth rates. I recently asked a question regarding the population surge, and from President LC's perspective, it becomes even more challenging to manage when refugees come in, as this further increases the population. Last April, due to the civil war in Sudan, hundreds of thousands arrived, and prior to that, the war in Syria has been ongoing since 2014, lasting almost a decade. Many people from Syria have come, and many others are flocking to Egypt. Professor, is this primarily a geographical issue, or are there other reasons why so many people are coming to Egypt, a country we don't know much about?

What is the center of Arab nationalism? The heart of Arab nationalism, the political, economic, and cultural hub of the Arab world, everything in the Middle East begins in Egypt. Movies also start in Egypt, but Egypt does not produce much oil, so that hegemony has shifted to the Arabian Peninsula. Egypt is an enormous country. It encompasses Sudan, South Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, and Somalia. All of these countries are linked to Egypt, and Egypt also receives them; it doesn't reject them. However, the population is large. Recently, there was an event: the war between Israel and Hamas broke out. During that time, both sides from Israel were saying, You guys in Gaza, you should take care of all of them. What did Egypt say? They said, We already have a lot of people; how can we handle 2 million? The population is now increasing, which is simply unreasonable.

It may be a story that seems unbelievable, but Egypt is indeed receiving a significant number of immigrants. However, there is one more country that we cannot overlook: Yemen. Yemeni people have come in and now there are Yemeni communities. Rather than forming a community, they have occupied a village, so to speak. Many of the local people are Yemenis, including the shopkeepers and the doctors, which means that when we are looking for real estate, we have to seek out Yemenis. I have met with some of them several times and out of curiosity, I asked, You are foreigners and long-term residents in Egypt, so what is your residency status? What kind of visa do you have? They would respond by pulling out their identification, saying that this is their proof of living in Egypt.

I opened a store in Egypt with a reservation passport and registered my business. How is that possible? It's not that Egypt is lenient, but generally, if you're an Arab, they tend to accept you. Right? Many Arabs fleeing civil war have come to Egypt, so they weren't strict about it. There are hundreds of thousands of Syrian people who just entered with their identification cards. Of course, many people saw Egypt as a transit point because they couldn't go directly to Europe from the airport. They entered Egypt and then traveled to Europe through Egyptian airports. But that mainly included Syrians, Egyptians, and other Arabs. As for African countries, they don't have airports; they usually attempt to cross through the sea, often referred to as death boats, but many have not been able to make it across. So, where do they go? They continue to stay in Egypt, trying to maintain their livelihoods.

In Egypt, we are currently in a city called Giza. Giza has a road leading to the pyramids, which is known as Pyramid Road. It is becoming increasingly difficult to see Egyptians there; it seems that only Sudanese and Yemeni people are around. It's quite surprising, isn't it? Living here with just a Yemeni passport, without a green card or anything like that, can be a bit challenging. Do you understand, professor? The truth is, in Egypt, anything is possible. It's a good country. However, the administrative capabilities are not very effective due to the sheer size of the country. It's not easy to secure all the borders, especially since they are mostly desert. To the west, there is Libya, and to the south, there is Sudan. The desert in that region is like a sea of sand, making it impossible for vehicles and people to pass through. However, if one can manage to get through...

You can enter without any surveillance. So, if there are anti-government figures in Egypt, they can escape through the desert without being caught. That's right. But is this not only about the war that is currently happening but also about the significance of trying to move towards Europe? Some people come to live in Egypt, but many want to go to other places, especially towards Europe. However, Egypt does not expel them. They need to be a bit strict, but they can't be too harsh, and the land is so vast that it's hard to monitor everyone. A few months ago, the Prime Minister mentioned that, in the long term, Arab brothers who want to live in Egypt can go to their local immigration office and just present their situation. They can do this after fleeing from the Syrian civil war.

I have been living in Egypt for several years, and I am running various businesses. If I just clarify this, we can register as foreigners and receive a registration certificate. This seems to have been the government's best effort. Let me talk a bit more about the issue of Nammin. In March of this year, the Egyptian government negotiated to receive 10.7 trillion won from our country over three years. This includes trade investment, renewable energy, and various other sectors. However, even though it is only a small part of it, the reason for lending this money might be to encourage Nammin to do well there, so that they don’t come to us. There are criticisms suggesting that this might be part of a hidden agenda. There might be some truth to that, even if it can't be openly said. The biggest concern in Europe is the influx of Nammin from outside Europe, which is causing significant issues. I believe this is the biggest problem.

Europe has a very different perspective on the South. The South of Ukraine is okay; we can coexist. We share a similar Christian cultural background, and there aren't many differences in appearance, so there are no issues. However, when it comes to Muslim regions, the religion is different, the appearances vary, and the cultures clash, which makes it uncomfortable. That's why we are requesting this support. We also asked for help. If Europe opens its doors, many will come. There are such issues. But right now, for various reasons, there are reports that loans have been significantly increased, from 3 billion dollars to 8 billion dollars. Nevertheless, the Egyptian economy is currently facing challenges, particularly with population issues and the problems in the South, making the situation worse. The economy is not doing well. In fact, we are trying to compete a lot, but Egypt is currently a country that needs to accept the Korean wave. Recently, there have been many wars and conflicts.

I do wake up, but the fact is that I've started to look at Egypt once again. In international news, Egypt is often mentioned as a mediator in negotiations, especially regarding the Gaza Strip. Egypt has historically played the role of a mediator; it has long sought peace. Personally, I believe that the most impressive Arab leader was Sadat. He was the former president who made a peace agreement with Israel, which improved relations with Israel. Unfortunately, he was assassinated because of this. During the Six-Day War, Israel took over the Sinai Peninsula. To put it in perspective, it’s like if we lost the entire northern region of the Han River, meaning they could see all our movements.

수선하고 바로 시나이 반도와 연결되는데, 이스라엘 군이 리를 다 보고 있는 거예요. 그래서 이스라엘에 물러가라고 했어요. 12km 이상은 물러가라고 했는데, 이스라엘은 안 물러갔죠. 그래서 이건 해결할 수 있는 건 전쟁밖에 없다고 생각했어요. 전쟁을 했는데, 전쟁을 하고서도 결국 많이 못 차오했어요. 그리고 궁극적으로 전쟁으로는 답이 안 되겠다고 해서 평화와 땅을 맞바꾼 거죠. 중동에서 이스라엘과 좋은 관계를 유지하면서 평화안을 낼 수 있는 나라는 이집트고, 그래서 이집트가 많은 역할을 해요. 물론 많은 부분에서 이집트가 좀 더 세게 나왔으면 좋겠다, 좀 더 강하게 나왔으면 좋겠다 하는 바람들이 아랍 세계에 있는데, 이집트는 또 이스라엘과의 관계를 생각하고 미국과의 관계도 생각해서 지금 최대한 중재하려고 노력을 하고 있는 거죠.

In 1979, after Israel first signed a peace agreement, Egypt was isolated for a while and faced a lot of criticism. At that time, the headquarters of the Arab League was moved from Cairo to Tunis. Egypt was ostracized by the Arab nations and had its diplomatic relations severed. In fact, President Sadat, during his visit to Israel to negotiate peace, invited Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat to join him and express his views, but Arafat refused. The mediating role has continued since then. Recently, the situation in the Gaza Strip has been widely reported in Korean news, making the general public in Korea more aware of Egypt, which they may be hearing about for the first time. Egypt has played a mediating role since before the establishment of the Catalan nation. The situation in Sharm El Sheikh developed later.

The new city near the Red Sea has quite a history. Although it is referred to as a new city, it has been around for quite some time and was once a thriving urban area. It has earned the nickname City of Peace because many peace negotiations have taken place there. Egypt plays an indispensable role in this process; it cannot be overlooked. However, if we look at the situation more coldly, no matter how inclusive a country may be, international politics can be very harsh. Even if a country claims to love peace, it cannot maintain that stance without its own interests. What kind of diplomatic strategy does Egypt employ to continue on this path? What benefits does Egypt gain from this? Some might argue that discussions with Israel are merely superficial, especially since Israel is currently quite powerful. Nevertheless, Egypt plays a significant role in resolving issues without conflict.

Currently, peace is not just a naive concept; it is essential for feeding our citizens and preventing further significant harm. Therefore, diplomacy is necessary. For this reason, a certain approach has been established for decades, and President Satt has maintained this approach, understanding that war does not provide answers. We cannot continue to be at war indefinitely; we cannot fight with Israel for generations to come. Thus, we chose the fastest path to establish a foundation for peace. The United States cannot discuss Middle Eastern peace without addressing Egypt, which is an incredibly important country. Today, we have two guests to discuss Egypt's population issues, refugee policies, and the role of mediating countries in the Gaza conflict. It was a brief discussion, but we covered a lot.

I was able to hear your words. I would like to express my deep gratitude to both of you today. Thank you very much.

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