We became the Forum this year with one of the most exciting storytellers of today. So, I am really happy that he said yes to come here this morning at 10 A.M. to discuss how he learned his TV show, his creative process, and his adjustments to the TV medium from his beginning as an indie writer-director. Please help me welcome our moderator, Mark Olson, and Sam Esmail. So, maybe to get started, like kind of before we get to talking about Mr. Robot, we can sort of talk about kind of how you got to there. We can start by talking about Comet, your feature film, and just when you think back now about where you were at when you were making Comet. Does that seem like some sort of a path Not Taken? Like, do you feel like where you're at now feels like an extension and like a natural progression of the sort of independent filmmaker who made Comet? Well, it's funny because I think it's about where we are in the industry.

and kind of like the state of things right now. I mean, uh, it's weird because like we were, I was playing. I'm gonna start this by playing like there's this game that we, I play with all my other film nerd friends, and we talk about like our favorite directors that had their debut. Like you had to only pick your favorite director that had their debut in that decade. So like in the 60s, you know, my friends would pick her Daisy, and I would go Woody Allen, and then, you know, 70s, some people would pick Spielberg. I'd go Lynch, and you know, we so forth. Then you get to the 90s, which is in my opinion was like this big boom friendly filmmaking, and it's like you got Tarantino, and you got PT Anderson, and you got Wes Anderson, and you got aaronovsky, and you got Spike Jones, and it's like who the do you pick. And then you get to the odds, and it draw like it's, it was hard to pick like one, and it wasn't that competitive, and

and then even now, I just feel like in the filmmaking, for whatever reason, is really struggling, and it's probably due to the fact that the marketplace has become a lot more international. Anyway, long story short, I think Comet to me was like, because I loved Indie filmmaking growing up, that was like sort of my stubborn refusal of like adapting to the times, like I had to make this film, and it really was something that I'd been wanting to like. I started writing it like, you know, years ago, like maybe 10 years ago, and um, I was just so, so determined, and when I first wrote a script, I'd written this other script, sequels, remix, adaptations, and I wanted to make that as an independent film, and you know, it was impossible to make. I mean, because the budget was pretty sizable, so comment was sort of this personal story that I knew that I could make on a budget, um, and then when I finally made that, it was just such a struggle. It was years of getting like this

microscopic budget, um, and getting it out there. And then, um, and then I was starting to write Mr. Robot. It was like a follow-up feature, and it was like to have to go through that again of like the raising the money and begging and pleading and, you know, I don't know if they'll work in China or not. And, you know, it was like, and I don't wanna, I don't want to have to deal with that. And with TV, there was, they don't care. I mean, we were just talking on the, uh, out there, which like a show like Atlanta and like one of my favorite shows on TV right now. I don't know if that's gonna work in China. I doubt it. I don't think China, you know, might not get it. I don't know, maybe they would. But it's a shame that like, it's great that TV will make something that specific and that sort of culturally relevant and that it doesn't have to be in this sort of, it doesn't have to, uh, be applied to this like international

marketplace pressure. So, in a weird way, I think it's like the times kind of veered me into a different track in TV. And do you feel like even when you were making comment, you were aware of that? Like, when did you sort of realize? No, it was never something that was premeditated like that. Like, again, I started writing Mr. Robot as a feature, and I got really long-winded with the script, as I tend to do. And um, and then I was wrapped at Anonymous at the time, and they had just come out with True Detective, and I loved True Detective. And I thought it was really cinematic and all the things that I wanted to do with Mr. Robot. And I didn't really want to do the work of cutting down Mr. Robot into this two-hour movie. So, I was like, Well, let me just turn it into a TV show. And um, and then it just like the worry of raising financing and going independent and having the cast, you know, some A-list, whatever, like all that just

went away, and it actually kind of made me think about those 90s directors who probably didn't have to think about all those things back in the day too, or at least it was a lot easier, I think, to get financing if you didn't have an A-lister and if you were doing like a kind of a more quirky character drama, offbeat story, you know. So, that's it kind of organically fell into place like that because when after you made Comet and, you know, it premiered at the Los Angeles Film Festival, got picked up for distribution by IFC. In a lot of ways, that's like the life that a movie like that, you know, can hope to have, and somebody should have. But did it feel to you like Comet had a proper life that it's sort of like, No, no, not at all. I mean, look, it didn't, you know, didn't make any, basically any money at the box office. It went to VOD and Netflix, and you know, there was, there was

there's really, there was really no, like, you really have to hit a very specific bullseye, I think, in the indie film market to really break out. Um, and it really, you're, it's like your chances. Basically, you have to be at Sundance, you have to win the audience award and whatever the grand, whatever it's called. And, you know, and maybe, maybe you'll, you'll kind of break through. I mean, what, again, wasn't that way in 20 years ago. I think you had a lot more options, but here it feels just a lot more, uh, not, I wouldn't even say crowded. It just feels, because of VOD, because of streaming, um, people maybe are not going to see indie films in the theaters, which is, which is sad, but I think that's, that's the case. And by the way, I'm probably guilty of it too. Like, I probably, why watch a lot of my, you know, the indie films I check out, I probably on, like, Netflix or whatever. But it's, it's interesting that the, the

fact that a movie like comment actually, you know, it's way getting more out into the world through VOD and streaming. Like, there are more eyeballs that can potentially see that movie, but you're getting a set. You don't get the same feedback from audiences and feeling knowing who saw the movie. Like, do people come to you and say, Oh, I watched it on Netflix. Oh, I watched some videos. Yeah, now I think that happens because of the show. I think people are now going back and checking out the movie on Netflix. And I don't know if it wasn't, but if it wasn't for the show, I don't know if that would be happening. I just know that there was a real sense of fandom again. I feel like an old person because I keep harboring back in the 90s, but it's kind of true. Like, I remember Bottle Rocket coming out, and even though nobody maybe outside of New York and L.A. saw it, like all my friends.

saw, and we would talk about it, and it would be special because nobody else saw it. And the same thing with, like, I remember when Reservoir Dogs came out. This is pre-Pulp Fiction, like, and it's a little bit like, kind of, not that I'm comparing this robot to Pulp Fiction or anything, but it's a little bit of like that leap. Like, I saw Reservoir Dogs before Pulp Fiction came out. We all talked about it, like me and my nerdy friends, and it came to like the little shitty theater in Suburban New Jersey. And um, and I don't know if that, because maybe there's just so many options to view things, I don't know if that exists anymore. But I guess I'd have to go to film schools to do a survey because I, I, because I wonder, I wonder if that fan, I wish, I hope that spirit is still there. But now in one of the things that I find interesting now, especially sort of in retrospect, thinking about comment is a

lot of the sort of narrative strategies that you use in Mr. Robot are things that you, it seems like you were sort of starting to work out in Comet, the sort of the fractured storytelling of it. And do you, does it seem that way to you? Like maybe even when you, after you had made Comet and you were starting to write Mr. Robot, did it feel as if you were sort of building on things that you had started to work on? Yeah, definitely, absolutely. I think you should always, I mean, in my opinion, I think that's what you're always doing. You're always constantly working things out. You're always constantly going with your, trying to go with your instincts and at the same time refining your execution of those instincts, you know? Because the great thing about the great thing about TV that maybe isn't there in film is that as you go from episode to episode, you can kind of see like it's, you have a, you have a message, you have a vision, you're trying to say something, but you're always

constantly being able to problem-solve, tweak it, refine it, make it clearer, make it stronger. And I think in general, as I move on from whatever I do next, it's always going to be a building block, even if I do a different genre or if I go in a different direction or tell a different story. I think it's always going to be that kind of, um, uh, resorting back to who you are instinctually. I mean, I actually think that's a to find, to really carving out your essence. I mean, one of the things that I love about, I think, a great sign of like a truly great filmmaker is when you can turn on a movie late at night and you're like, you know, switching channels, and some movie pops up, and you can kind of immediately tell who the filmmaker is, you know? Um, that's, that should always be there. That core should always be there. And yes, you're gonna do different stories and tell different, uh, and maybe go in different genres and go in different directions, but that essence should

always be that heart should always be there. Can you describe it all? Maybe what that interest is for you, like your sort of narrative strategies, like the kind of storytelling you seem to like. Do you have some idea maybe where that comes from and what it is you like about that? I don't know where it comes from, but I love storytelling where the sort of the chief principle of storytelling is you want the audience to anticipate or you want the audience to know what happens, what's going to happen next, right? That's the whole thing. Every scene is like, Oh, what's gonna happen next? That's up. Like, Is he gonna do the thing? And you wanna keep that energy going. But I think the one thing that I love, and maybe this is like, I don't know where I could trace it back to. I mean, that was a big Twilight Zone fan when I was a kid. But, and Tarantino does this a lot, but

I loved not just anticipating what happens next, but wait a minute, what happened before, and what happened over there. It was sort of this panoramic view of storytelling, and I always kind of liken Mr. Robot and the way we tell that story to like, you know, you're kind of standing this close to a painting, and you're just stepping back, and then you see that picture, and then you step back, and then you see more of the picture, and it kind of recontextualizes what you thought was true, and you step back. Actually, it's a lot like what Hitchcock does. It's like sort of circular storytelling where you're kind of giving the pieces around the story, and it's not about the sort of straightforward linear storytelling. Yeah, that was, for whatever reason, that always resonated with me. And then can you kind of talk a little bit about writing Mr. Robot before it became a television show, whatever that sort of original script was. I've heard you talk a few times.

about how and you mentioned it or it was it was getting really long like for whatever reason the story that you were working out just naturally had this sort of heft to it and what what was that story and maybe what what what how did the script sort of end up in the whatever form it was well this story I hope everyone has seen the show because I'm about to spoil a lot of things um but but the the story was really about a guy who has this sort of realization this this sort of dissociative identity disorder realization about himself that was going to be the 30 minute Mark as when Elliot realizes he is Mr. Robot and so clearly I went a little long on that um because that ended up being the first season of the show but that but like nine and a half hours too long but that that that was that was like the 30 minute Mark that was gonna be like the end of my act one and going into act two what happened was I started writing I I remember specifically so I was like on

page 90, and I was like, oh, this is not going well, um, because I was like nowhere near the end of act one. I'm on, and I'm on, I basically have written a feature already, um, and what I remember, it was the scene with Darlene in the bathroom, uh, when she's basically broken into Elliot's apartment, that's taking a shower in the bathroom, and I just loved her character so much, and I love the Terrell character, and I love the Angela character, and I just start having all these, like, I just started getting add about, well, I want to explore this and this and that, and it was really the characters that made me go along because I just couldn't, like, the originally the story was just, we're all on Elliot's POV the entire time, it doesn't change, that's what the movie's about, and, you know, to a large extent, the TV show is still about that, that's the journey, but I wanted to also go jump povs and go into these other characters, and for me, I'm just, I'm

I'm I don't care less about plot. I think plot to me is like, you know, that's the part in the movie that I zone out. I don't care. I care more about the interesting dynamics between characters or relationships between characters, how they make choices based on how they feel from a character. That stuff is the stuff that's really interesting to me. And ironically enough, that actually is something TV is. You're you have more time to explore in TV than you do in features. But I'm interested in how, you know, you're sitting there as a writer, and did you feel as if you were just giving yourself the space to have a 90-page First Act? Did it just sort of come out that way? I mean, you knew you knew that that was like not a proper movement. Yeah, no. Well, the thing is, I always do what's called a vomit draft, and I'm sure you writers understand what that is. You just don't care. Like, you're writing the worst cheesy dialogue on the nose or zero

subtext and everyone's telling each other how exactly how they feel, and there's terrible exposition, but you're just because you know the scariest thing is the blank page, so you're just trying to get down there, and then you can go back, and you can rewrite and reread it, and be like, What the were you thinking? But then that's the fun part, that's the fun part of carving out all the bad and putting in the good. So I was just doing that vomit draft of like, It's gonna be long, every vomit draft is, you know, you just let yourself go. But I guess I just didn't realize I was going that long. I mean, I really didn't. I, I, I, I, because sometimes I don't even look at my page count, like I'm just writing. And that's the other thing, I knew I loved it, like I knew I, like that's when I knew I was like, This is going to be good, because I'm super, super

excited about it um but then I was really bummed when I was like 90 pages. What the hell is this? Like then I thought I mean I remember initially when it when that when I first saw it I was like well maybe this could be a franchise you know like a this is just the first of 27 movies. Um did you did that feature script get to an end? Like did you finish it? No like sort of wrap it up? No it was the that 90 page mark was Darlene in the shower and I was like you know let me just stop for a second and I went back and looked and I was like like this is not good and well I can't end the movie with Darlene in the shower. Doesn't make any sense although you know it could be a weird abstract ending. I don't know I could I couldn't convince my I was in trouble. I didn't know what to do. I honestly didn't know what to do and I I do remember someone suggesting it should be a TV show but I was like no.

I don't want to make it a TV show because, you know, it has to end, and I don't want it to go on and on and on for 10 years or whatever. But then, this is what I was saying earlier: I saw True Detective, and so I thought initially it could be a limited series. And so I was like, Okay, cool, yeah, I can wrap this up in 10 hours. And then I couldn't even do that. I mean, because then I did the Bible. I wrote a Bible. Okay, here's what the episodes are. And I was like, Because then I fell in love with Shayla. And then I was like, That was a whole subplot or storyline. And then I realized, Okay, okay, this could be like a few years. And now, when did this kind of become official? Like, how? What was the process of going from that point of having this just sort of long draft and this idea that it could maybe be a TV show to the... I mean, was the process of actually

making a TV show is different from finding the financing, getting an independent feature film off the ground. Yeah, well, the weird thing is there is no Indie, I guess. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, not that I'm aware of. I don't think you can independently go finance like a low budget. I mean, and I hope that changes because I think it could be interesting to do like an indie pilot and then like have like a pilot festival or whatever, and people pick up pilots. But I know it gets complicated because of the actors, and you got to get, you know, like three, whatever. I'm boring everyone, so um, that's that. I mean, that's the specifics of why it's different. That's yeah, and I hope that changes because I think it would be awesome because it is so hard to get financing for an indie film. Maybe if you could get financing for an indie pilot, which is only like, you know, four and a half, the half the length, you'd have more time to be able to or, you know.

you could dedicate more resources to 45 minutes as opposed to 90 minutes, um, and I think that could be cool, um, but I, you know, like, essentially because that didn't exist, we knew that basically I had basically so what I did was I chopped off the last 30 pages, um, and I was like, okay, that's the pilot, picked an ending, and then, you know, it was the Terrell moment, uh, so that was the 60-page pilot, and um, I knew exactly what the end of the first season was because that was going to be the end of my first act, and I kind of, it worked out like a little bit of a Bible, by the way, I had no idea what I was doing and never, I was never in a writer's room, I had no idea of anything, how TV got made, but I just knew him, I had that, I was never gonna again, like, I was so resistant to this being like a long-running TV series, it was going to be a very finite, we're going to get to

the ending of the sort of the story I envisioned and um so I was very specific about what I wanted and so then we we pitched it around and and I kind of pitched exactly what I what I'm saying to you right now and I told them you know this was initially featured now it's a very long feature and that's the only way to look at it I mean uh and I think they appreciated that I was very specific and had it like a very specific direction to take the show and but does this as you know you went to film School you like learned you know filmmaking and I'm interested is does this process still feel like filmmaking to you or does it seem like it's something other well the first season was rough right because because I was I was first of all so when you're the showrunner you're not supposed to be on the side every day to me that's crazy like how am I not gonna be there when we're because I I

know some writers/filmmakers will disagree with me. I know Quentin Tarantino actually famously always says that this, that the script is a standalone piece of work and the film is like another, like is it basically an adaptation of the script. I think he says um whereas my point of view and this is just for me and for my writing. I look at the script as a blueprint for the movie, like to me the movie is the thing. It will always be the thing and um and so in TV. It's like writer writers writers are the king but to me. It's like about it's always got to be about the filmmaking. Like you can have the gray script and a filmmaker can come in and it up and like what's the point you know um and I didn't like the you know. I have a very specific Vision style for the show um. This wasn't about just getting coverage and again you know conventionally. I think TV was get just cover the scene you know medium medium wide and get out you know for me. It's a

it's about making actual filmmaking choices. I actually never wanted to be a writer; I always wanted to be a director. So, that first season was like me sitting there, and I directed three of the episodes, but for the other episodes, it was hard. And by the way, great directors, um, so it was nothing on them, but it was just hard to sit back while someone else was directing that script, um, just because I had such a very specific, uh, goal for what we were trying to accomplish with every scene. Um, so that's why kind of the decision led, you know, the, uh, to direct all the episodes in the second season. That's kind of what led to that. So, I actually kind of adapted the TV formula to more feature filmmaking techniques because the other thing that I did was I said, We got to finish all the scripts before we shoot, and we gotta shoot everything before we cut. You do not do that in TV; you're supposed to write, shoot at it all at the same time. I mean, I, I, there's no

way I could do that like that just way too much multitasking. I don't know but now I for someone to like assign you a grown-up or someone to say like this is the way that we make television and this is how it's going to go like why why do you think you were allowed to essentially rewrite how people make television. Well so what happened was I think so and by the way anybody who is thinking about going into TV know that if you do sell a pilot and you're making that pilot that they are watching you while you're making that pilot and they are making a lot of decisions based on how you act and behave during the whole pilot process just FYI because that basically that is what was happening during the pilot and I I was basically just very specific during that whole process like I was talking to the costume designer. I was talking to the you know Heron makeup. I was uh talking to the production designer um. I was just so and I was talking to

the director and the actors were ending up coming to me a lot. Um, so it's... I was just... I was very much just kind of controlling the vision very... and the editing. I was very much just like... like very much detail-oriented in every aspect of the show. And I think based off of that, they were like, Well, we could give you a grown-up, but there's no way you're gonna listen to them because clearly you're a crazy person that needs to, uh, needs to basically make a decision on every aspect. So that's kind of the reason why they backed off. And but then what was the experience like of kind of learning to kind of play with others like in, you know, setting up a writer's room, working with a writer's room, like figuring out the elements so that you could still have it feel like it's a singular vision, it's still yours, but just the nature of the production that you have to kind of let a little bit of that go. Yeah, and the thing is

the writer's room is where I felt like I did want help. I mean, every time I write anything, it would be foolish to just be like, Okay, that's it. I'm not going to show it to anyone because it's perfect, and here you go, world. You better buy it and make it. That's silly. So, you know what? Normally, if you're a good writer, you'd finish the script and you send it to your best friends, not the ones that are going to be like, Oh my God, it's amazing. It's the next Oscar winner. Like, ignore those people. You go to the ones that are gonna be like, This sucks. Like, how could you write this? Here, here's how you fix it. You're gonna go to the ones that are challenging. They're going to challenge you, and a lot of the writers in my writer's room are a lot of my friends from film school that I would always do this process with, and then we obviously hired other writers too, and it was a good way of just getting

like, obviously, I had a very kind of that initial jumping-off point of what that first season was going to look like. And then they would come and challenge and come up with better ideas, and that process was just delightful. The singular vision thing is ultimately, it just comes down to you. Someone has to make a choice on what is that best idea. It's not like necessarily a democracy, but it tends to be that genuinely if the room kind of has a consensus, it tends to be that. But then there are times when you're kind of in the writer's room, and you know people want to go in a certain direction, but you know whatever it is in your heart of hearts that's not the right way to go, and you just have to veer off, take it to another place, you know? And then I'm very interested in the fact that you mentioned that the second season of the show where you went ahead and directed every episode actually was

easier for you because there was less sort of ghost delegation and like not you know wanting the other directors to kind of be doing things the way that you wanted. It's interesting like taking on more somehow became easier for you. Yeah, I mean it just streamlined. Look, you're when you're directing, you're making choices, everything from that person needs to be read to you know is this the right location for you know uh you know evil Corp. Like it's just you're making small to big choices and um it just streamlined everything so that um if because it's annoying to have another director who is great, who you respect, and you're kind of having to be sitting back seat, you know, you're you know, you're um, you're kind of like looking over their shoulder and kind of well I wouldn't make that decision like I don't want to do that. That's how you know I feel like an they probably think I'm an  and so you then you just have this and it's like to me it's like if

that that's great if the showrunner were not, were you, were like, Yeah, whatever, you're in charge of this set. You can pick the yellow or red purse. But because I do have that sort of specificity to the show, it just streamlined that process a lot more. And then no one's feelings are hurt. And yeah, and I didn't have to backseat anyone. But again, was that a difficult concept to present to the network of, Oh, by the way, oh, they... Well, they didn't mind that I wanted to direct every episode. They just thought I was gonna die. They were just worried about me, like, Um, because it is grueling. I mean, it's 83 days of shooting, um, of 12 hours, um, and they're... These are not light days. These are not like the Woody Allen eight-hour days. These are 12 to 14-hour days. Um, and I... You know, it was grueling. And it was... But the thing is, and this is the

argument that I told them, and I think this is kind of like the sort of catch-all to all of this, was in the first season. I was on set every day anyway, like I wasn't letting go of the, whether there was another director or not. It didn't like kind of ease the sort of responsibility, like I was still there, you know, and so that's sort of where kind of the rubber met the road. I know where as far as the storytelling of the show and that. Are you well past whatever was in that initial, you know, long feature script and Bible? Like, do you do? Are you still sort of like working? Are you filling in the middle towards some ending that you've always had in mind? Well, no, because I had a middle, and it's like what? Here's what I didn't have. I didn't have all the other character storylines worked out. I basically had all of the Elliot storyline worked out, but that Elliot storyline kind of is going

to change and shift a little bit because of the other characters and how he sort of responds and kind of bounces off of them. But kind of his journey is sort of our North Star, you know, and that's the thing that I basically worked out in the beginning when I was writing that feature. Because the critic Andy Greenwald, he talks a lot about the major difficulty of making a television show, is for the television show to learn how to be a television show. Like, that it's a thing that happens week after week. There's a certain relationship that builds with the audience. And has it been a challenge for you to sort of get away from maybe thinking about this as a long feature and to sort of learn what a television show is supposed to be? No, I just ignore that. I'm being honest about that. I mean, the weird thing is because, you know, the second season has obviously got more of a mixed reaction than the first season. And I think it's primarily, I've heard that, I feel like instinctually.

it's because of that people wanted episodes, and they wanted a storyline per episode and whatever, and um, and they felt like they were just not uh getting a whole story per app, but maybe like, you know, they were getting fragments, but that's that was all intentional. Um, you know, Woody Allen, who's a hero of mine, um, did a TV show um called Crisis in Six Scenes, and the same sort of criticism, and there's other criticism which, you know, um, I maybe share, but uh, the one criticism they got for this show was that uh, exactly what you're saying, This is not a TV show, it's just six parts of one movie. That I loved about what he did, and I don't get, I don't get because, you know, there were people like, Well, maybe you could binge it, but not from a week to week. I never understood that, and I honestly, I just ignore that because um, I think TV is so much shifting in that direction anyway where um, the storytelling can be modified.

and it's good. It's going away from that sort of procedural element of like, Oh, here's an episode, and here's its theme. And I think you have to have a little bit of that, but I don't think it's the end-all be-all. And now, how much are you reading criticism about the show? Are you aware of criticism about the show, and is that impacting what you're actually doing as you're in process making the show? Well, first of all, I... We talked about this. I've always wanted to be a critic, so I do. I was just not very... not a good enough writer to be a critic, but I love reading criticism. So, of course, I'm going to read every review of the show. And did... Do I? No, I don't. Well, first of all, I couldn't change anything because we shot everything, and everything had been written, and we were editing. So, there was... There was... There was no way I could react in that way. But I think, in general, you... You try

and judge what worked like when you sit back and you're honest with yourself about. And if there's a consensus among the critics or the audience, then you kind of like ask yourself, Wait a minute, did I? Was that my intention? Or Are people just not picking up what I'm doing? Is there someone I can be stronger? That's, I think, that's like a human thing to do. But at the same time, like sometimes critics have a consensus about a show or movie where I'm like, This is terrible. I don't know what you guys are thinking. Or the opposite, that sometimes they hate a show or movie that I love. So you can't, you gotta remember that it's really, again, it goes back to your instincts and how you feel about it. And if you watch it and you love it and you think it's working, that should be a huge factor in how you react. If you're going to react well, something like the sort of 80s sitcom episode that you did in the second season that exists kind of.

So outside of the rest of the sort of the grammar of the rest of the show, is that something where, because you're making a television show and you have so many hours to fill, you can have this sort of really free outside of the norm episode, or where does the ideas for doing something that sort of even outside of the sort of structure of the show come from, right? Well, that's the fun part about TV, and maybe that's the fun part about the episodic nature of it, is that I kind of liken it to like, um, I always talk about like old school hip-hop. I mean, I still listen to hip-hop, like contemporary, but whatever. It's like the, I'm an old guy, so the 90s hip-hop was the best hip-hop. And um, and when you listen to like those old school, they're like every track, it could go funny, it could go weird, it could go, but it could go be, you know, traditional, whatever. And um, and they had little, these little vignettes in between the tracks, like I

remember doggy style had you know these little storylines like in between and but then it would and then he would spin out and do something really different and odd and take left turns and I I love the just the unexpected surprising nature of shifting from one track to the next and I remember wanting that in the show wanting that one of the reasons why not the harp on Atlanta why I love Atlanta is they do that so well is that every episode it could go anywhere and I really wanted that kind of energy and spirit in Mr. Robot and I think you because of TV you can do that I mean I think it'd be a little weird in the movie to just jump all around between scenes um and sort of keep it consistent tone because I think that's the thing if you get too erratic and your tone is all over the place um I think you might lose people and it may not resonate as much as you'd want it to but um but I think again because of TV and and and because if you I think

Oddly enough, the sitcom episode still fit into our tone. It still kind of made sense in the world, even though it's really different. So, um, like, you know, I gotta say that, like, the hip-hop analogy, just to go back to it real quick, that to me is like, that is what a season kind of feels like. It's just, you're making these tracks. Um, and I think in terms of that long form, like the episodic nature, that question you were asking earlier, I think that could be like a good way of looking at, I think, what we're trying to do in Mr. Robot, where it's, these are just all pieces of a whole, you know, as opposed to, um, each standalone, each episode is a standalone thing, you know. Because what do you feel your sort of relationship to the audience of this show is, in particular with sort of your storytelling strategies? Do you feel like you're always trying to stay one or two steps ahead of them? Are you trying in some sense to like wrong-foot the

audience and keep them off balance. Like, what is your relationship to the people who are watching the show? Well, that to me is just classic storytelling techniques. You can use foreshadowing, telegraphing, misdirection, you know, red herrings. This is just classic storytelling techniques that you do the kind of, again, and as much as you can tell a story in the most entertaining, suspenseful way. It also just depends on what that episode or scene, you know, is supposed to do. And now, do you see yourself going back to conventional filmmaking, or do you, will you sort of, do you see yourself staying in the sort of long form in television? Well, I think, like, I think the lesson I learned from writing or attempting to write a Mr. Robot feature is maybe you, maybe the idea will tell you what it wants to be. So, if I start writing something, and again, if I'm finding myself 90 pages into what should have been a First Act, then I probably know that's not a movie.

because do you feel now, especially from your experiences in television, that for you know especially people sort of maybe who are just getting started or out in the world, that they should they be thinking about the options of like well you could make a movie or it could be a television show or it could be something else like what for you what do you maybe think like the building blocks would would be. Well, unfortunately, I think you got it like factor in the economics, you know, instead of that, you know, the a bad habit to have, and I and I had this when I was, you know, when I was younger, so like I understand and relate to it, but a bad habit is to say those guys suck, they just want to make, you know, Daredevil seven and them and blah blah, and you can do that, and you can be angry, and you know, but that's basically that's the extent of that line of thought. Um, if if you want to think about it from their perspective, which I think is helpful and maybe constructive, it's what are the

economics to them, and for whatever reason in the movie industry, they have decided that it has to work in China and here, and if it doesn't, they don't really want to make the bet that, you know, that it will or that it will make its money back or whatever, and so it's not, there's not enough in it for them. And that's not always the case because maybe they'll make the bet if you get Brad Pitt and, you know, Angelina, well, I guess not the two of them, but um, really, really bad example, but um, uh, but you get what I'm saying. So for whatever reason, and I don't understand, so I am not a businessman, so I don't understand this, but for whatever reason in TV, though, they are spending money like crazy. I mean, Netflix is just like, whatever, we'll make whatever there, and it's not relegated to just uh, TV shows. They're, when they're making movies too, did there's this movie on Netflix called XOXO. Did you see this?

no, it's just, it's like, I guess it's just like a teen comedy. I watched it, um, it's like this teen comedy, uh, it's just like an old school teen. It kind of reminds me of like maybe like American Pie or whatever, um, um, but it was like made with like a real budget, and I remember think finding that strange because I'm like, they don't, they just don't do that. My question is, what is it, um, that got you fired up about True Detective for episodic storytelling, and then what was it about Mr. Robot that you thought, I can make this for USA rather than for premium cable? Well, okay, so the, the first question about True Detective was that the filmmaker, there was, there was intention behind the filmmaking, um, it wasn't just coverage, and for, for a long time, as much as I loved some TV, and it wasn't the first show that did that, but it was, it was really striking in the way that it land, like, because Sopranos had great

filmmaking and The Wire had great filmmaking, and um, but there was just something about True Detective that it was more stylized in a way that I always envisioned how I would make a movie or a t, you know, you know, at the time just movies, but uh, what how I could see Mr. Robot as a TV show, so it really spoke to me on that level, and then I think maybe if you want to say watershed moment, that that's probably uh, what was most resonant about that show for me um, and then what was your second question, I don't remember now, sorry. How did you decide that um, it was USA, USA versus you would just stick with premium cable? Well, I had, I had an opportunity to sell it to a premium cable. This is another life, life lesson maybe. I don't, I'm not giving life lessons. Let's, let's, let's, let's put an end to that right now um, so their premium cable, they want development, they wanted to put the script in development, they want to

develop the script. Um, I hate development. Um, development is a nightmare. Development is two percent of develop, you know, script, and development will get made to in any form, and I want to make things. Um, you could get a nice check. Um, you could, you know, and if it's with a big name like HBO or any of those guys, um, it could look good on your resume, but you will not probably not make the thing. Um, or if you do, it'll be 10 years later, and um, and and and maybe I'm being too cynical about it. Maybe it's changed. I don't know. Um, but the difference was USA wanted to make it there. That was a that was that was a huge, in my opinion, a huge vote of confidence because that that means that they're actually going to commit to uh at least getting a pilot uh produced with a great budget, and um, and and not contingent on anything, not contingent on if you get Brad Pitt to start, you know, it's nothing like that. Um, so it was it that was kind of like

the big factor I know I want to be sure to ask you before we wrap up that you've now made a Mr. Robot virtual reality. I don't even know what you call it, experience, film, yeah. And what maybe where the idea for doing that come from and how did you find that experience of sort of extending the world of Mr. Robot even further. Well, I so what so I'm a huge nerd, right, so I love every gadget. So I start and I one of my good friends is Chris Milk who he just changed his company name. I think it's called within now. What is it within, yes. And he and some of the shorts and short films he's done on VR is just amazing and I'll you know I'm competitive. I'm like I'll do one, it's gonna be better. And well, it's um anyway he's just he's just an incredibly he's a genius. I mean he's just a genius and all the stuff that he's done. So I've we've always talked

about like let's do something together and what happened was Mr. you know we have a great marketing team on the show um and they came to me and said let's do some promotional material. And the thing is is like for me it's like I never want to just do something promotional for the show like if I'm if we're gonna do something I want it to be another episode Another Story uh that that just you like that you could expand your kind of understanding of the show um and but it's not going to be just something to like Market the television show or whatever but it's going to be like its own Standalone piece. And this is I just I was like I want to write and direct a VR film. It's going to be the Standalone little short story about Elliot and Shayla. It's not going to be like the because I think initially we're like VR that would be cool you can go hack people in BF society and I was like no we're not doing any of that like it's

just going to be this nice little intimate story of Elliot and Shayla, and it'll be this flashback, and um, and they were down, they love, you know, they love the idea, and then I made it, and it's, you know, VR is crazy and interesting, and the one thing I worry about with VR is that it goes down the interactive way, it goes down just the marketing promotional route of like, you can look at Mars, or you can bust ghosts, um, and I don't want it, I want there to be storytelling, because I think there's a great way to tell stories that obviously you couldn't do in just a, you know, a regular film or TV, so I hope for VR's sake that there's a lot of filmmakers out there that can be, because you have to recontextualize storytelling to a large extent when you go on VR, there's no cutting, there's no editing necessarily, it's sort of Live Theater mixed with um, you know, visuals, it's, it's, it's

really interesting, but now maybe to wrap up on something of A Life Lesson. Like, it's interesting to me that in thinking about what you've been doing in sort of starting in sort of conventional independent filmmaking, moving into television, and then even doing something like VR, you seem to have a real ability for sort of adapting what you're doing to sort of operate like responding to opportunities, but still holding on to your essence and still doing things that are very much from you. And do you feel like that is something that you feel very strongly about, that you're kind of you're open to things, but you're also you have a strong sense of like what you want to be doing? Yeah, I mean just be stubborn. Here's not A Life Lesson. Here's what I do. Here's what I do, and then you can just judge for whatever and take it for whatever you want it to, but it's I'm stubborn about the things that feel right and the things that feel wrong. You

know and I don't chase anything in between. I don't chase the, the, well, okay, it doesn't feel right now, but maybe it could when I, that's when you start. I think that's the path to like damnation right there. I think that's the path to compromise and mediocrity. Now, that's not to say you should not compromise this, and this is where stubborn is bad, is when someone in the room who you know pitches a better idea than yours, and you're like, No, no, no, it's my idea, and we're gonna go my way. Like, that's when you have to just be honest with yourself, and that's the essence I think I'm talking about. But it's the flip side of that that I worry where you're like, I know this isn't good, but it'll get made, or it'll get this person. But if it's not good, then like, that's the logic you have to get. Like, if you know it's not good, then why do you think it'll get that?

person you know and that or get that financier get that whatever um so just really really kind of stay stay true to yourself when it comes to the making those choices uh well fantastic well thank you so much for thank you every day and everyone please join me in thanking our guest today Sam Esmail. I've never been to this award show before, and independent films are my favorite films or the films that inspire me. So, to be included is um really special. I've always wanted to come. It's my first time, so I'm pretty thrilled. It feels amazing and kind of surreal.

How 'Mr. Robot' Creator Hacked the TV Model | 2016 Film Independent Forum

How 'Mr. Robot' Creator Hacked the TV Model | 2016 Film Independent Forum