역사적 예수 신화, 전설, 세미나 인사이트

### 예수의 역사적, 전설적 측면 탐구하기: 세미나 초대
* 📅 12월 5일에 열리는 "크리스마스 이야기는 정말 일어났을까?"라는 제목의 세미나에 여러분을 공식적으로 초대하고 싶습니다. **역사와 전설 속 예수의 탄생**"이라는 주제로 **버트 아만드 박사**가 주최하는 세미나에 여러분을 초대합니다.
* 💬 이전 토론에서 저는 예수를 둘러싼 역사와 전설의 혼합에 대한 제 견해를 밝히면서, **예수가 완전히 허구라고 생각하지는 않지만 예언을 성취하기 위해 다른 곳에서 태어나고 자랐다는 등 그의 이야기에는 모순**이 있다고 지적한 바 있습니다.
* 📖 저는 무화과나무 저주나 간음하다 잡힌 여인과 같이 예수에게 기인한 특정 이야기가 나중에 추가된 것으로 여겨져 그 진위에 의문이 제기되고 있다고 지적했는데, 이는 마치 **로빈 후드의 전설에 하녀 마리안이 수 세기 후에 추가**된 것과 유사합니다.
* 🧠 에르만 박사는 역사적 사실과 복음서의 전설적 요소를 구별하는 작업은 다른 역사적 인물의 삶을 분석하는 것과 마찬가지로 학문적 노력이며, **그들에 대한 많은 이야기가 과장되거나 날조되었을 수도** 있다고 강조했습니다.
* 📜 그는 학자들이 어린 예수의 기적적인 행위를 묘사한 **유아기 도마복음**과 같이 예수의 삶을 더 잘 이해하기 위해 정경이 아닌 복음서를 포함한 고대 문헌을 연구하는 데 **수십 년**을 보냈다고 언급했습니다.
* 🔍 또한 요세푸스의 여러 예수에 대한 글에서 볼 수 있듯이 **당시 예수라는 이름이 얼마나 흔했는지** 그래서 역사 텍스트에서 특정 인물을 식별하기 어려웠는지에 대해서도 논의했습니다.
* 📚 다가오는 세미나에서 아르망 박사는 **동정녀 탄생과 베들레헴으로의 여정 등 크리스마스 이야기의 역사적 측면**을 자세히 살펴보고 각 강의가 끝난 후 Q&A 세션에서 참가자들의 토론 참여를 독려할 예정입니다.
* 🎤 시간을 내주셔서 감사드리며, 많은 분들이 이 흥미로운 주제에 대해 **더 자세히 알아볼 수 있도록 함께** 해주셨으면 합니다.

에르만 박사는 12월 5일에 열리는 크리스마스 이야기의 역사적 측면에 대한 세미나에 여러분을 초대합니다.

Thank you for inviting me to another conversation, Dr. Ehrman. Yeah, I want to officially invite everyone to another seminar that Dr. Burt Armand is doing, which will be on December 5th. This could be an all-day seminar titled Did the Christmas Story Really Happen? The Birth of Jesus in History and Legend, and of course, include details in the description below. Now, I wanted to have the last time we spoke. I wanted to have a discussion on the mix of Jesus in history and legend because while I do not think that Jesus was entirely fictional, as some other people do, I have to account that, you know, there's some questions about how Jesus is raised, born in two different places, raised in two different places, all seemingly designed to fulfill previous prophecies. And when I bring up to other people, I want to bring up certain stories about things that Jesus did that called into question, you know, it would make me think that maybe he was historic. I find out that

The story about cursing the fig tree was reportedly added later, and apparently, there is some consensus that the story about the adulteress and the stoning was also added later and not part of the original Jesus story. So, with some of Jesus's story being added after whatever fact there might have been, it reminds me of like Robin Hood. If you had a time machine, you can go back and find Robin Hood. If you mention Maid Marian to him, he's not going to know who you're talking about because she wasn't added to his legend until 300 years later. So, that's my sort of a take on the Jesus mythicism, that Jesus is heavily romanticized. We know that some of his legend is based on, or it has, is not original. It's certainly based on prior characters. So, I want to hear your take on that, just as a free-flowing conversation, because I didn't get that opportunity before. Yeah, no, it's a really key question.

and um you know it's it's really the question that scholars who work on the historical Jesus deal with um apart from having conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists. The conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists would say, Look, what the Bible says happened, happened. Um, and so they wouldn't be what I would call a critical scholar, somebody who's able to examine the evidence and go one way or the other. They already have their opinions set. But critical scholars for um for a very long time, since the end of the 18th century, since the 1770s, scholars have realized that there are elements of the gospel stories that are not historical, that are uh, you might just call them legendary, as we as we are doing now. And and the the trick, it's not a trick, it's it's a scholarly discipline that people spend many many years working on figuring out what actually is historical in these accounts and what are legendary accretions. And it's it is a complicated task but in

theory. It's no different from the task of figuring out what Abraham Lincoln did because there are lots of stories about Abraham Lincoln that aren't true historically. They might reflect something of his character and they might tell you something about what storytellers wanted to think about him, but they didn't really happen, and so it's not true just of Abraham Lincoln. It's true of most figures in the past. I mean, it's probably true of you. It's certainly true of me. I hear stories about me all the time that aren't right. Yeah, I found out that I'm apparently the lowest-paid member of the Illuminati. Okay, well, there you go. If you're more influential, you get a higher pay rank. My ex-wife told me that she went to some place back east, and she went to some historical foundation kind of thing where they had on display George Washington's axe. And this was the famed axe from the cherry tree incident. Yeah, which is really surprising since the

cherry tree incident never occurred. Well, you have the artifact for it. Yeah, no parks and weems made it up, and he, the guy who made it up, who'd written a biography, said that he made it up. He later admitted he made it up. He also made up the fact that he claimed to be George Washington's pastor, which wasn't right either. But it's very ironic, of course, because the whole point of the cherry tree is I cannot tell a lie. It's a weave, just lying about the story. So, yeah, so, but you know, George Washington scholars have to try and figure out how do you decide, and the principles are the same with the historical Jesus. Historians don't have like a different way of doing history when it comes to Jesus than they do with Charlemagne or Julius Caesar or Abraham Lincoln or Donald Trump or anyone else. You do history, and there are criteria that you follow. When you follow those criteria, there are things, there are clearly things that have

been added to the story. Um, that either the gospel writers have heard that are not actual facts, or that later scribes have added to what the gospels themselves said, or they're all sort of. And so, this is what I'm scholars. Uh, it's got many scholars devote decades after learning, you know, Greek and Latin and Hebrew and Aramaic. We spent decades pouring over these texts, trying to figure it out. And, you know, I think for the most part, we have a pretty good idea. So, there are gospels. If I remember correctly, you wrote about 16 gospels that didn't make it into canon. And one of them included a story about where Jesus kills some kid at some point. I mean, so is there any truth to any of those other stories? So, uh, yeah. So, in this webinar that I'm doing on December 5th, I'm going to be talking about some of these other traditions about Jesus as a, as he was born and as a young child. The gospel

you're talking about now is called the infancy gospel of Thomas, and it's one of my favorite gospels not in the New Testament. It tells stories about what Jesus did between the ages of 5 and 12, and it's very interesting because Jesus, as a five-year-old, already has miraculous power. But you know, he's a five-year-old; he doesn't have it under control yet. And so, yeah, there is a story where he's walking through Nazareth, and some kids are playing, and a kid runs up and kind of bumps him in the shoulder. And Jesus, five-year-old Jesus, turns to him and says, You'll go no further on your way. And the kid falls down dead. I said, Whoa. This whole gospel is filled with this kind of thing, and it turns out that, in fact, these people who are reading this gospel in the early church may not have thought that this was funny. They may have taken it seriously, uh, and

There are reasons, actually, for thinking it might be a serious account to demonstrate how powerful Jesus went and how he treats his enemies. Because my favorite passage of wisdom concerning Jesus actually comes from one of the non-canonical gospels, and I think it is the Gospel of Thomas, where Jesus's disciples ask him about circumcision, and Jesus's answer was, If God meant for us to be circumcised, we wouldn't be born with foreskins. Yeah, yeah, that's a different Gospel of Thomas. So, there are two Gospels of Thomas, but so there's this other Gospel of Thomas that is called the, sometimes they call the Coptic Gospel of Thomas because it's to differentiate it from the Infancy Gospel. This one is written in Coptic, which is an ancient Egyptian language. This is from the Nag Hammadi library. Yeah, it was discovered among the Nag Hammadi library. It's probably the most famous, and it has 114 sayings of Jesus in it.

it's just sayings of Jesus, no narratives, but it's no stories, but just these 114, and it has some very, very interesting sayings, including the one you're talking about. So, that reminds me of the Abraham Lincoln quote that you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Yeah, exactly. So, there was a Robert Price who told a story in one of his books about how Josephus was known by a Jewish name of Josephus Barmathias, and Robert Price suggested that perhaps Josephus was confused with Joseph of Arimathea. And his take then compares this part that Jesus, Josephus wrote about finding three of his friends up on crucifixes. He goes to Titus instead of Pilate to have them taken down, and two of his friends lived, and one of them died. And reading that and then comparing it to Luke, it seems as if both accounts were written of the same event from two different perspectives. I'd love to hear your take on that.

I think you lost me, or maybe Robert lost me on the bar Matthias and Arimathea. He's thinking that who confused Joseph of Arimathea because, yeah, this is Robert Price's suggestion forever, Price's suggestion. Yeah, that Josephus being under the Jewish name of Joseph Barba, Joseph Bar Matthias. Yeah, that sounds very similar to Joseph of Arimathea. Yeah, and maybe it's the same character. Oh, it can't be the same character because Josephus is well documented. He wrote an autobiography that we still have, and he was writing his account of the Jewish wars in the '90s, around '93 or so, around '93 CE. Joseph of Arimathea is mentioned in Mark's gospel in the year '70. And so, um, I don't, maybe Robert has something more in mind than that, but we have Joseph of Arimathea stories before Josephus was writing because he just does this.

Yeah, Joseph does have the story about this, this, you know, this account of him asking for people to be taken from the cross. And it is a very interesting story. And it's interesting that there are some parallels. The most obvious parallel difference is that the whole point of Jesus' story is he was dead already. So, but you can see how. So, yeah, that was one of the interesting things about. About like Josephus wrote about 19 Gzi, if you want to put up the plural to it, or arguably 20 if you want to include the one that was already dead on the cross. Okay, yeah. And so why I've talked to a handful of Christians who will go to Josephus's writings and they'll say, they'll mention, you know, James, the brother of Jesus, the anointed. And they would say, Well, that's our Jesus. And it doesn't matter if they're talking about Jesus of Damnedes or Jesus ben Ananias. They say that both

of them are there. Jesus, this is proof that historical proof of their Jesus. Yeah, even though we know that these are different people in book 20. It's in book 20 of his antiquities. And he's the problem is that the name Jesus, as you said, it was a very popular name. Just, you know, it's the name Joshua put into Greek. And so people are calling their kids Joshua because he's a great, great hero. Just as, you know, in the 1960s when I was growing up, a lot of middle infielders in the major leagues was named Jesus, right? Yes, playing shortstop. And so, um, so it was a common name in the age. So when Josephus identifies a particular Jesus, he has to have some way of saying which one he's talking about. So is it Jesus son of Ananias? Is it, and so, but in this case, he says that James is the brother of Jesus, the one who was

called the messiah, and these other Jesuses are never called the messiah. And Josephus, the only one called the messiah, is Jesus of Nazareth. Okay, so if I understand it, it was Jesus the anointed, but I'm reading a translation, so I don't know. Yeah, it's the Greek word is Christos. Well, yeah, it's Christos, which means it doesn't mean anointed one, but that's what the word messiah means. Messiah, Hebrew word means that heart can be bit to a line from Jesus Christ Superstar. You know, you Jews produce messiahs by the sackful, but I'm not aware of the sack full of other Jesuses or Gzi. I do, I do, but yeah, but there weren't others named Jesus. I've seen how the Muslims have appropriated Jesus into Islam through the Quran, by taking elements of stories and then recasting those stories somewhat, and then they would have like there's

this one Persian story where a Persian who's wandering away from Zoroaster goes to meet Jesus because he wants to find out the truth of God. And then Jesus says, But I'm not the final prophet. You need to go talk to Muhammad. Because Jesus never died in Islam, was never crucified, never died, right? That's right. So this guy meets Jesus, and Jesus tells him to now go to Muhammad. Much the same thing happened when suddenly you have John the Baptist, who had quite a following already. Well, now he gets appropriated by the Jesus cult. Yeah, so he's now telling all of his followers to follow Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is similar, and I assume that the Quran picked it up from the John the Baptist story as the forerunner that now Jesus becomes the forerunner of Muhammad. The Quran does have stories about Jesus. Interestingly, the Quran appears to take in one of the stories from the infancy.

gospel of Thomas get the story about making a sparrow, which is a so yeah. So it had a number of sources, and faithful Muslims, of course, think that it's telling the absolute truth, but it's obviously getting their stories from someplace, and you know, partly from the gospels and partly from other stories they've the authors heard. Well, thank you for addressing the story of the Joseph bar Matthias thing, because as I said, when I heard Robert Price's argument, I read the Josephus passage, contrast with Luke, and I thought these two were both telling the same story from different sides. Yes, I don't think so, but it's an interesting comparison. The word, the names are different. Arimathea is a, we don't know who this person is, we've never heard of this person before, but it's, I've suspected that Arimathea actually in Greek, Ara, it might mean something like best disciple indeed. Now, that's my time. I'm going to

have to let you go. These aren't much too short. That was what my audience complained about last time I spoke to you. So, uh, one more time, just please pitch your seminar if you. Yeah, so it's going to be on December 5th. It'll be an all-day set for. I'm giving four lectures. After each lecture, there'll be a question and answer. People, participants can ask questions. Um, we'll have a lunch break. And, uh, it's all going to be on did the Christmas story really happen. And so, you know, you know the trip to Bethlehem. Was he born in Bethlehem? Virgin birth. And lots of virgin births in the ancient world. I mean, I'm going to be dealing with all this from a historical perspective and trying to see if we can know anything historical about the birth of Jesus. Thank you very much, sir. Okay, thank you.

Jesus was a  man, a myth, AND just a legend

AronRa

버트 아망 박사는 12월 5일에 "크리스마스 이야기는 정말 일어났을까?"라는 주제로 세미나를 개최합니다.

역사와 전설 속 예수의 탄생"이라는 주제로 세미나를 개최합니다.

이 토론에서는 예수의 생애에 역사적 요소와 전설적 요소가 혼합되어 있으며, 일부 이야기는 나중에 추가되어 그 진위에 대한 의문이 제기되고 있습니다.

비판적 학자들은 18세기부터 복음서 기록을 검토하면서 역사적 사실과 전설적 추가를 구분하기 위해 노력해 왔습니다.

에이브러햄 링컨과 조지 워싱턴을 비롯한 역사적 인물들은 종종 거짓 이야기와 신화에 둘러싸여 있습니다.

역사가들은 예수를 포함한 모든 인물을 연구할 때 동일한 기준을 사용하며, 진실을 밝히기 위해 수십 년 동안 텍스트를 분석합니다.

12월 5일 웨비나에서는 예수의 초기 생애에 대한 다른 전통과 이야기를 살펴볼 예정입니다.

유아기 도마복음은 5세에서 12세 사이의 예수의 기적적인 행적에 대해 이야기하며, 어린 시절의 통제되지 않는 힘을 보여 줍니다.

이 복음서에는 예수님이 부딪혀 쓰러진 아이를 일으켜 세우는 등 극적인 이야기가 담겨 있습니다.

또 다른 도마복음은 콥트어로 작성되어 나그 함마디 도서관에서 발견된 것으로, 예수의 114가지 말씀이 담겨 있으며 독특하고 생각을 자극하는 가르침으로 유명합니다.

아리마대 요셉과 요세푸스의 혼란

로버트 프라이스는 아리마대 요셉과 요세푸스의 이름이 비슷하기 때문에 두 사람이 연관되어 있다고 주장합니다.

그러나 요세푸스의 잘 기록된 생애와 저술은 아리마대 요셉에 대한 언급보다 앞서 있습니다.

그 시대에 예수라는 이름의 공통성은 특정 개인을 식별하는 것을 복잡하게 만들어, 예수에 대한 역사적 증거를 찾는 기독교인들 사이에서 혼란을 야기합니다.

나사렛 예수만이 메시아로 불리며, 그리스어 '크리스토스'는 기름 부음 받은 자라는 뜻입니다.

메시아의 개념은 유대 문화에서 흔히 볼 수 있지만, 예수라는 이름을 가진 사람은 많지 않았습니다.

꾸란은 예수를 무함마드의 선구자로 묘사하면서 예수의 이야기를 적절하게 다루고 있으며, 예수의 어린 시절 이야기 또한 포함하고 있습니다.

참새 이야기와 크리스마스 이야기 세미나

도마복음에는 복음서를 비롯한 다양한 출처에서 가져온 참새를 만드는 이야기가 포함되어 있습니다.

요세푸스의 구절과 누가의 아리마데에 대한 기록을 비교해 보면 아리마데의 이름이 "최고의 제자"라는 뜻일 수 있다는 점이 흥미롭습니다.

12월 5일에 열리는 세미나에서는 베들레헴으로의 여행과 동정녀 탄생을 포함한 크리스마스 이야기의 역사적 측면을 강의와 Q&A 세션을 통해 살펴볼 예정입니다.