미디어와 대화에서 도덕적 딜레마 탐색하기

### 딜레마 탐색하기: 정직한 담론을 통해 분노에서 치유로 가는 길
* 🎭 대화는 대중의 페르소나에 대한 성찰로 시작하여 **'화난' 캐릭터와 화자의 본성 사이의 대비**를 강조하며 개인의 차이를 인정하는 것이 중요하다는 점을 강조합니다.
* 🗣 "인권의 보편성을 옹호하려면 기꺼이 비판할 줄 알아야 합니다."라며 **도덕적 책임과 미디어 내러티브의 영향**에 대해 더 깊이 탐구할 수 있는 무대를 마련했습니다.
* 🤔 화자는 논란의 여지가 있는 인터뷰를 방송해야 하는 딜레마와 씨름하며, **불신 심화의 잠재적 결과와 솔직한 대화의 중요성**을 저울질합니다.
* 🌍 토론은 사회적 치유의 역할로 옮겨가고, 연사는 **분열적인 이야기를 지속하기보다는 신뢰와 이해를 증진**하고자 하는 열망을 표명합니다.
* 🛑 연사는 문화 전사로 활동했던 자신의 과거와 분노가 비생산적일 수 있다는 사실을 깨닫고 대신 **호기심과 진정한 대화**를 옹호합니다.
* 💬 두 참가자 모두 대화를 존중과 신뢰를 훼손하는 논쟁으로 보는 것의 함정을 인정하면서 **솔직한 대화를 위한 공간**을 만드는 것의 중요성을 강조합니다.
* 🌱 궁극적으로 화자는 **선동적인 인터뷰를 공개하지 않기로 결정**하면서 평화를 찾게 되고, **선정주의에 참여하는 것보다 신뢰를 쌓는 것이 더 가치**하다는 것을 인식하게 됩니다.
* 🧘 이 대화는 둘 중 하나를 택하는 사고방식에서 복잡한 문제에 대한 보다 미묘한 이해로의 전환을 장려하는 **둘 다/과거 패러다임을 수용하라**는 요청으로 마무리됩니다.

자아 중심 저널리즘과 신뢰 증진 중 하나를 선택해야 하는 딜레마는 사회적 치유자로서의 길을 규정합니다.

I had seen the character you were playing on TV. - We have to be willing to criticize if we're going to defend the universality of human rights. - Why do I have to push you to give them credit? - You don't have to push me. - It's all bad news, as far as you're concerned. - I think you were America's provocative Muslim. And I think it's like, somewhere along the way, I was like, Why do you play this angry person on TV? You don't seem like an angry person at all. - In this episode of The Dilemma, you'll meet someone who helped me develop my moral courage. I'm bringing a deeply personal conundrum. It's about my role and responsibility as a content creator. Namely, do I air an interview that I did with an Islamic Jihad leader in Gaza, an interview that exposed how he manipulates

Islam scripture, the Quran, or do I shelve that interview since it'll likely only deepen distrust in media narratives? - The question is, what kind of person do you want to be? And I think it's obvious, the path that you have chosen, which is that you wanna be a social healer. - If you're talking about a Messianic Jew in the West Bank justifying violence or if you're talking about a white supremacist justifying violence, it's the same issue. It's about making that kind of connection across any of that justification. - I think a lot of people have a tendency to view, like a conversation, as a debate rather than an actual discourse. And I feel like when we pivot towards a debate-centered conversation, then we start to lose respect for one another. - And when that happens, there can be no trust. - You know, that adrenaline rush that comes from feeding your ego brain?

The dilemma is, are you willing to trade it for the slower, more enduring rewards of reviving trust in one another? Welcome to The Dilemma. How do you remember our first encounter? - So I've read your book, and of course, I'd seen all of the kind of explosion around the book, and I had seen the character you were playing on TV. I think you were America's provocative Muslim. - Moderate Muslims, what you've been calling for. - Not many, not many. - Stepping up with signs, visibly making themselves targets. - And I feel sorry, in Libya, like there are some of them. - You've gotta give them credit though, Bill. - Absolutely. - Okay. - Because they could be assassinated in doing that. - But why do I have to push you to give them credit? - By the way, at the time, I was playing a character on TV, too.

I was America's friendly Muslim, but I found the character to be narrow and stultifying. We are all part of the us, and if we confuse this, if we get a sense that it is a religion that is against us, man, this is only gonna get worse. I knew the distinction between a public persona and a private individual. I was aware of that, and I think it's like, somewhere along the way, I was like, Why do you play this angry person on TV? You don't seem like an angry person at all. - So I'll tell you why I came off publicly as angry. It's because I felt under siege all the time for having a point of view, for advocating reform in our faith at a time when saying that was seen as a sop to Islamophobia. - Yeah. - And so, honestly, when you said to me, you know, You seem so nice, I remember thinking, Because I am.

- Yeah, yeah.  
- I am. The reason your innate decency had the dramatic effect on me that it did is that you gave me what I would call an honorable off ramp from culture warring. - The truth of the matter is your inner car had been burning its engine so hot on the highway of anger, it was looking for an off ramp, and I just happened to be present when you were like, Oh, I think I'll turn off here, right, and I think what's powerful about this is we might be in that situation as a culture. I think that there might be like wide groups of people who are at the end of their anger highway whose engines have burned too hot for too long, and they're looking for an off ramp. - You were yourself a culture warrior. - Yeah. - For a few years. I grew up in the Western suburbs of Chicago. So I get to college, and I hear language

like institutionalized racism and white supremacy, and I swallowed the pill whole, and I just raged, and part of the reason I raged was because the people who initiated me into social change were angry people. And there's like something romantic about it. People wear Che Guevara T-shirts, right? There is something romantic about a fist in the air approach, and that's how it was presented to me, but it did not take me very long to realize this is not who I am, and it's burning me up inside, but the problem is I'd created a character for myself. - It's exactly because I'm a different person today than I was 20 years ago that I will be completely transparent with you. I'm not just embarrassed, I'm ashamed of the interview that I conducted with the political leader of Islamic Jihad in Gaza, and ashamed because of the way I conducted it. Is what? - He's too busy, he's gotta go now.

- [Irshad] He's too busy? Are you sure that you're not pulling a fast one on me? You are not just not wanting to answer this question? I played gotcha, and, Eboo, I got him. But so what? The world is replete with gotcha journalism, which is why I believe that if I were to publish this interview now, I would only be feeding the noise machine. - I don't think you wanna do 100 interviews about releasing that footage, which is what you would then be presented to the public as the person who played gotcha with this figure, and that's the character you would have to play, and the problem with playing a character on TV is it seeps into your personhood, as you and I both know, right? I don't think you wanna be that character. The question is, what kind of person do you want to be?

Who do you want to be? And I think it's obvious, the path that you have chosen, which is that you wanna be a social healer. And I think that that's all about trust. People trust people who have competence and caring to build a more beautiful social order. - I'll tell you why I've chosen the path of being a social healer. It's because it has healed me. I don't think it's something noble. I don't think it's, you know, something that we need to leave to the Mandela's and Rosa Parks and Gandhis of this world. Fact of the matter is that when I lift the pressure off of my shoulders to be right all the time in every situation, I can lead my life with curiosity, which teaches me so much more than I would otherwise learn, and learning is a joy. - Yeah, totally. - You know? - Yes. I honestly think that one of the greatest,

not just skills, but qualities anybody can have is can you create a space where people can have an honest and searching conversation? That's a question that we should all ask ourselves, and that's a question that has answers. - I feel very resolved about this specific dilemma. Do I do anything with the footage of the interview with the Islamic Jihad leader? And for reasons you now know, I'm at peace with not releasing it. Doesn't mean I'm right. You might even advise me otherwise, and I'm genuinely curious if you do advise me otherwise. - I would never show that in isolation because it's not about that one interview. It's about any justification of violence. So if you're talking about a Messianic Jew in the West Bank justifying violence or if you're talking about a white supremacist justifying violence, it's the same issue. It's about making that kind of connection across any of that justification, and I think if you do that,

it's automatically less inflammatory because it's not about that one interview anymore. The problem is that we live in a world in which there's something called context collapse. And it means that those with agendas and, boy, are they ever everywhere, will take snippets or will ignore the context that you've given, you know, even as you set it up. And not only will they ignore it, but then they'll inflame it with their own commentary. So if I wanna be, going back to the point, who do you wanna be, if I wanna be worthy of trust, I don't see how I'm furthering that vision by releasing this interview. So I was thinking that if you had the opportunity to talk, obviously, you won't be able to talk with this gentleman, but if you had someone who had his similar views in a sort of one-on, like a debate, is that something you would be willing to engage in?

- I actually did engage in a much healthier debate with a journalist from Al-Jazeera, and I prepared myself emotionally, emotionally. I said to myself, Irshad, remember, he is not your enemy. He is only your adversary. - If you buy this argument that the Mullahs are all bad, everyone thinks for- - No, we're all bad. Come on. - Okay, a lot of them are bad. - Stop hyping that. - A lot of them are bad. - Don't be a typical journalist. - A lot of them are bad. A lot of them are bad. - Don't do that. - A lot of them are bad. - When he asks a question. Take a moment. Take actually, a breath. Let that panicky part of your threat-seeking brain slow down enough to now move over into the, you know, more evolved part of the brain where feeling and thinking can coexist.

And that can happen just by taking a deep breath. If your challenger makes a good point, say so. There is no shame in acknowledging that everyone has a slice of, you know, valid experience to share. - I feel like, especially when talking about contentious political issues and like especially issues that impact people on a personal level, I think a lot of people have a tendency to view a conversation as a debate rather than an actual discourse, and I feel like when we pivot towards a debate-centered conversation, then we start to lose respect for one another and the inability to actually listen to each other and listen to what that person's experiences are or their background or what areas of value they can bring to the conversation. - And when that happens, there can be no trust. - Exactly. - Going back to what you were talking about, Irshad, yeah. - Well, Hana, I love how you put that a discussion doesn't have to be a debate,

and a lot of people do conflate those two things. The problem with debate, and, by the way, I love a good debate. Don't get me wrong. Debate is wonderful for a tournament, lousy as a way to live your life because, in a debate, there can only ever be one winner, right? And that ego brain, that primal brain that we're all born with is saying, I'm not gonna let you lose. Thing is, my ego brain is saying the same thing to me. I'm not gonna let you lose. - So then we're both just yelling at each other with not even listening to what the other one's saying. - Exactly, and, worse, we're trying to one-up each other for the sake of winning something that never needed to be win-lose in the first place. - Yeah. - Right? Have you ever self-censored, stopped yourself from speaking because you didn't trust that the person

or people on the other end would be willing to hear you? - All the time, all the time. I'm very picky about who I like to be friends with because I want people who are on my same, like political spectrum. So when they aren't, then I have a hard time kind of wanting to do dialogue with them because I know I'll blow up at them, and I know they'll blow up at me. So a lot of the times, when I'm talking with my friends at work, and they say something about against LGBT issues, then I have to kind of just like, Stop. - I'm gonna say something that might seem presumptuous. - Oh, yeah, of course. - You can tell me if it is. I'm sensing that maybe you are treating that encounter as win-lose, namely, Since I can't win, I'm just gonna stop right here. Is that, in your heart of hearts,

how you feel about those sorts of encounters? - Yeah, I would have to say so, yeah. - Yeah. - Because I would really want everyone to be on my side, and if you're not on my side, then it's just kind of a, an, oh-well-situation type thing for me. - Instead of just ending the conversation, what would be valuable to do, as far as you're concerned? - I would say definitely questioning it a lot more and trying to have more of a peaceful, not debate, but just, you know, a one-on-one where it's like, Hey, can you at least tell me, you know, why you're feeling that way? And I can tell you how this makes me feel and why it makes me feel that way. And then, hopefully, we can continue going on from there. - When you tame your ego brain, you're actually not giving anything up.

except the emotional drama that comes from, you know, engaging in either/or. In other words, you can stand your ground and create common ground at the same time. It's not one or the other. Standing your ground is about what you believe. Creating common ground is about how you express what you believe. So if you can leave your other feeling respected, not agreed with but heard, you've just motivated them far more than they would've been otherwise to give you a fair hearing in turn. - Yeah, and, I mean, what I really love is the Socratic method. When you're talking about asking questions. - Yeah. - You are forced to listen. You are forced to kind of to think about, How can I get more out of that person? I need to listen, and then I need to reformulate it, and so as a method of getting that empathy, asking questions is the best skill to have. - Mmm, as long as they're sincere questions.

- Sure.  
- And I know that should go without saying, we are all very, very good as human beings, at asking really judgey questions.  
- Sure. - Do you have any idea what that means? Have you got any clue the impact of what you just said? Well, that is a question, all right, but it's really an accusation with a question mark at the end of it, yeah? So it really is about easing us as a, Yes, I'll be this ambitious, easing us, as a species, out of the either/or mindset and into something richer, more complex, and for that reason will require us to slow down a little bit.  
- Yeah. - You know, and that is the both end paradigm.

You have the intellect to crush your enemy. Should you? | The Dilemma Ep. 3

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도덕적 용기와 미디어 책임의 딜레마

이 대화에서는 이슬람 지하드 지도자와의 인터뷰를 방송하는 콘텐츠 크리에이터의 역할을 살펴보고, 미디어 내러티브와 신뢰에 미치는 영향에 대한 질문을 제기합니다.

이 대담에서는 존중과 신뢰를 증진하기 위해 대화를 논쟁이 아닌 담론으로 바라보는 것이 중요하다는 점을 강조합니다.

또한 직면한 위험에도 불구하고 변화를 위해 눈에 띄게 나서는 온건한 무슬림들을 인정하고 그 공로를 인정해야 한다고 강조합니다.

공적 페르소나와 사적 자아 사이의 갈등

연사는 미국의 우호적인 무슬림이라는 편협한 성격에 갇혀 있다고 느꼈고, 신앙의 개혁을 옹호하면서 분노에 대한 인식에 어려움을 겪었습니다.

그들은 문화 전쟁에서 명예로운 탈출구가 필요하다는 것을 인식하고 자신의 분노에서 벗어나고자 하는 다른 사람들의 공통된 경험을 인정했습니다.

연사들은 문화전사로서의 과거를 반성하고 이전 행동에 대해 부끄러움을 표하며 지난 수년간의 개인적인 성장과 변화를 강조했습니다.

연사는 겟차 저널리즘의 함정과 그것이 개인의 인격에 미치는 영향에 대해 성찰합니다.

또한 사회적 치유자가 되어 능력과 배려를 통해 신뢰를 구축하는 것이 중요하다고 강조합니다.

연사는 폭력의 정당성은 개별 인터뷰를 넘어서는 더 광범위한 문제라고 믿으며 논란이 되는 영상을 공개하지 않는 것에서 평화를 찾습니다.

대화에서 컨텍스트 붕괴가 미치는 영향

문맥 붕괴는 정보의 오해와 조작으로 이어져 신뢰를 구축하기 어렵게 만듭니다.

상대방과 건전한 토론에 참여하면 이해와 공감을 증진할 수 있습니다.

대화를 토론이 아닌 담론으로 바라보면 신뢰 구축에 필수적인 존중과 적극적인 경청을 촉진할 수 있습니다.

토론은 종종 승자독식의 사고방식으로 이어져 참가자들이 서로 소리를 지르고 상대방의 말을 듣지 않게 됩니다.

발표자는 자기 검열에 시달리며 정치적 견해가 다른 사람과의 대화를 피합니다.

논쟁에서 이기려고 하기보다는 서로의 관점을 이해하기 위해 평화로운 대화와 질문이 필요하다는 것을 인식합니다.

신념과 공통의 기반 균형 맞추기

자신의 입장을 고수하는 것과 공감대를 형성하는 것은 상호 배타적인 것이 아니라 공존할 수 있습니다.

진지한 질문을 하는 소크라테스 방식은 경청과 공감을 촉진하여 다른 사람을 더 잘 이해하는 데 도움이 됩니다.

양자택일의 사고방식에서 양자의 패러다임으로 전환하려면 인내심과 복잡한 대화에 기꺼이 참여하려는 의지가 필요합니다.