but you are an actor who plays Jesus, right? So, you should speak foreign Catholic Church right now. Let me tell you, it's like I can speak for the entire evangelical population. We just walked out of Saint Peter's Basilica, which genuinely is one of the top three most unbelievable pieces of art I've ever seen. I would consider the whole church to be an art piece of worship, really. I've never seen anything like it. You just walk around thinking you'll need a chiropractic appointment later because you're gonna crane your neck. It is different in there for you than it is for me because for me, you'll have moments where you'll touch something or you'll kiss something or you'll have a moment where it means more to you when you walk into a place like that that's that big. To me, it's like, I don't know if this resonates with me as much, even though it's impressive artistically, because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to, for me, it's

about small and personal. What is it about the scope of it and the size of it and the what is it, Jonathan? Um, well, Dallas. Uh, like they were doing a mass when I came in. What takes place in that church that when you walk in is meaningful to you and connected to you? When you're going into a place like St. Peter's, you can't help but just be stupefied at the beauty of the artistry and the thought of how long it took to actually build this cathedral. And so, you have to get past that to find those moments of personal connection. So, for me, participating in the mass is what brings makes it extremely personal for me. You kind of have to put blinders on, and you have to just sort of find those things that have residents, like Pope St. John Paul II is buried in the basilica. There's an altar, and he's inside the altar, and many, many folks are buried inside there. And because he was a pope that I grew up with as a kid.

seeing him on TV, hearing him preach, that then becomes the personal connection for me. He just meant a lot to me personally. And so, that's when I come into a place like this, that's how I can connect on a personal level. I think it's made to really highlight how much of the culture at the time was centered around God in society and the efforts that they took to glorify God through the gifts that they were given. Let's show God the magnitude of our love for Him, and by building these magnificent monuments, right? So, for me, I've always seen, I've come to see this, that there's strengths and weaknesses to it because I believe that Protestants have gone too far in the opposite direction and become almost skeptical of art and skeptical of imagery because they don't want to be idolatrous and because they don't want to be so symbolic that you miss out on the truth of what's being said, that these relics feel like idols to some Protestants. And I've come to believe

Well, we Protestants, I think, have missed out on some truly great opportunities to be artistic. And as an artist myself, I'm like, Yeah, I do that. I create symbols sometimes in my work. I create metaphor. And I'm learning from the great artists of all time, like Michelangelo. And, you know, I mean, gosh, I was gonna say Michelangelo because I thought of his sculpture, and then I was gonna say and the guy who did the Sistine Chapel, and that was Michelangelo. I'm like, He got... They knew each other. Yeah. Would you say he was a Renaissance man? I would say so. So, but my point is bringing that up is like there was so much... Like, art really was an expression of worship. And I do believe that Protestants have overcorrected, but I also do see people who go into those places who do treat these pieces of art almost as holy, like an opportunity to visit Peter's grave and to see fragments of his bones.

which is cool, and as someone who is right now telling, retelling the story of Peter to the world, it's meaningful to me. But they spoke of it as if this was like a truly holy, sacred place, and that they protected it as a sacred place, and you kept distance from it because it was holy and sacred, and churches were built on it because it was so sacred and holy. And I'm like, well, why is it sick? Why is that sacred and holy? Yeah, like, like Peter, that's not really Peter, that's just, those are bones, and Peter's alive, he's in heaven. Like, why is this spot holy and sacred any more than any other spot where I'm praying to God, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's a big question, and there are theologians that I'm sure have much better and deeper answers than I could ever get. But you are an actor who plays Jesus, right? So you should speak for the Bible. Sure, I should be Catholic right now. Let me tell you.

It's like I can speak for the entire evangelical population. Let me do that just before we go to meet the Pope. Speak on behalf of the world. Well, I'm gonna share all this stuff with the Pope. I'm gonna be like, Listen, Pope, I just don't understand why his bones. And I'm sure he will. We'll have a long 30-minute conversation about it. I just got a text. We've been disinvited. So, no, I get it. You're not. You can't speak for everybody. But it does. That's connected to what I'm saying about some of these places that are treated as though they're holy. Because I, and I think, I think as a Catholic, it is holy. I think the bones of Peter. I haven't seen them yet. I think they are holy because they were in him. They were in a man. They were part of a man that lived on the earth and did phenomenal extraordinary things and was essentially given the keys to the church to start.

the church and I think it's deference, it's reverence, and there's just a kind of cultural respect, a spiritual respect for our spiritual ancestors. You know, it's like going to a graveyard and saying, Well, you know, like, why don't I just kick over a gravestone? It's just a piece of stone. Let me just run around on these the grapes. Well, I wasn't spitting on Peter's gravesite. It'd be the same thing. It's like, Why have any kind of respect or honor for anybody in a graveyard because they're no longer here, right? They're not alive anymore, but they were, and what they stood for, and what they did in their lives, and who they were, and what they mean to you deserves reverence. You bring up the example of a grave site. Evangelicals actually by nature are less observant of grave sites. It's just less of a, like, there's a sense of, like, Let's go visit the gravesite.

you know occasionally, but now we want to build something, so let's get the bulldozers in here and just put that. Well, maybe. I mean, yeah, maybe not that far, but there is kind of like a... It's not as big of a deal to us, and we would never ascribe holiness to it, like some sort of spiritual holiness to it. And so, I don't ascribe spiritual holiness to a lot of these locations. I think that there's danger in both. I think both sides can become... One can become too idolatrous, one can become too dismissive, and I don't think either... No, I don't think so either in that camp, but... But... But... And I've grown to over the years. Like, when I first used to come to these places, I would show up, and I'd be like, This feels wrong to me. And now that I know so many more of Catholic brothers and sisters who I believe share the same passion for Jesus that I do, and just

have a different worship approach and style. I go, Okay, I can see it differently. I'm still not quite there yet. I still don't quite have the same... because I just go, Oh, I can't see this as a holy place. Yeah, to me, and this is where I think it comes to the show, my belief, my job with the show is to personalize it. Yeah, and it's to take away some of the scope and grandeur and get to that moment, those moments when you are Jonathan portraying Jesus and saying, Like, it's you and me. Look me in the eye. I'm talking to you as an individual. And it's not about the building. It's not about the object. That, to me, is more meaningful. That's where I get my more, my resonance. And I know for you, you talked about yesterday, which I haven't seen yet, the holy stairs. So, it started raining, so we had to move. When you were walking the steps yesterday, the steps that Jesus stepped

It's got to be different for you even than it is for me. It's just going like I get a chance to actually act this out like we'll do that in future seasons. Yeah, you know, and I'm going to be thinking about these steps that I did yesterday. Yeah, I got halfway through and I just started the week, you know, as I was reading these bits of scripture because every step, there's the little booklet and you can read lines from scripture that start at the Last Supper and go through the resurrection and it goes through the, you know, the passion of death and sentencing, passion and death. And I was just thinking of Jesus's actual feet having been there before me and me having my human feet depicted on screen as Jesus, you know, Jesus's feet, Jesus's face and his interactions with his disciples, his brothers and sisters. And, you know, it was funny. I think I got that question for the first time like a week ago at an event I did, um, or

it wasn't. It was in an interview, and I think I said something similar to what you were telling me earlier. And it's like, I hope that I did. Was I close? I mean, you know, five out of ten, six out of ten, you know. And, uh, yeah, I, I, yeah, I'd be, I'm curious. I mean, I would, you know, I can't think about it as I'm working, obviously, you know. Um, and there's been moments where I think, you know, we both had, especially in season one, where I just felt the weight of, you know, the unworthiness and not wanting to screw it up and that I shouldn't be there preaching. And, uh, and luckily we, you know, we got through that. And, and because we, we lean into it, yeah, like there's only one way to go is to embrace the unworthiness of it, yeah, and, and be less of us and more of him. Um, but I think for me, the f, the final thing is I, I hope long term that the personal relationship with Jesus and the personal connection that

we have to these people who walked with him. um results in a worship that is at the grand scope in nature that we see in Saint Peter's Basilica and vice versa. yeah I never wanted to. I never want one to replace the other you know so you. I want that to draw you to a personal relationship and I want the personal relationship to draw you to worship.

Evangelical and a Catholic walk into a basilica…

Evangelical and a Catholic walk into a basilica…

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