I was gaslit my whole life. Should anti-racism activists give their limited time to people who seem to oppose their cause? Emphasis on seem. We, the people, agree more than we think we do about issues that we're told are polarizing. So maybe there was a part of me that wasn't seeing them as fully human. Like, if you can adopt an ideology that tells me that I'm subhuman, then what does that say about you? We don't trust each other, so we don't engage each other in meaningful ways, which in turn deepens the distrust and distracts us from the surprising amount of consensus that already exists on addressing racism and so much more. And I had to ask myself if I'm really concerned with progress and really concerned with change, how much of it is gonna be from my anger towards this person? Or how much of the change will come from comparing notes

and questioning my own ideologies? Questioning your ideologies and seeing what common ground we can actually build upon. - In this episode of The Dilemma, you're gonna meet someone who used her platform to protest Confederate Heritage Month. After anti-Black bigotry began pouring into her social media feeds, she decided to speak with a supporter of the Confederate battle flag, and that's when the surprises started. She inspires my question: would you engage someone who appears to have dehumanizing beliefs? - You know, I think that it has to start with conversation. It can't start with a confrontation. - The first person that you should have a conversation with is yourself. - If we are not getting the respect that we need, the humanity that we deserve, then it is in my belief that it's permitted to shame them that they are not doing what they're supposed to do. - Are you willing to trade the adrenaline rush

of either/or battle to instead build the moral courage that generates both and solutions? Welcome to The Dilemma. Well, you sure showed your agency from that concert stage when you launched the protest against Confederate Heritage Month. You lowered a noose around your neck. - I didn't just lower a noose; I held a fist, right? So when I heard that my governor named April Confederate Heritage Month, the image of Emmett Till's face kept looping in my brain. You're not gonna celebrate a heritage that was largely founded on a moral and philosophical truth that Black people are inferior. I was gaslit my whole life by my teachers, my government, saying, You're wrong, that's not what that means, but I know better. I can read it in the Cornerstone Speech; I know my history. I wanna stand up for myself and my folks. That's why I did it. I didn't know it was gonna go as big as it went.

I don't think anyone could have guessed that. In and among that reaction was a post from Louis McFall. Yeah. And in this post, he said, Genesis, it's my heritage, and I strongly disagree with you about getting rid of it. Well, specifically, we're talking about the Confederate flag. That's right. And my Mississippi State flag. [Irshad] That's right. Not necessarily people flying it on their private property, like, I don't care what people do on their private property, but for you to put a flag up and say, and my tax dollars gonna say that represents me as a Mississippian and 40% black population, that's where it didn't sit right with me. So what do you do? You up and invited him to a face-to-face conversation. You remember the first question you asked him? How does that flag make you feel?

- That's right, that's right. - That's a powerful question because it's simple. It didn't tax his brain. It spoke to his heart, feel. - Yeah. - And he replied. - It's definitely a symbol of, you know, home. What about you? - It makes me feel unwelcome. - In the conversation, he actually didn't change his mind about the Confederate battle emblem being in the Mississippi State flag. What he changed his mind about is you. - About me, yeah. - Yeah, he said, I have never experienced that kind of respect from someone on the other side. What, if anything, surprised you about Louis? - I remember him being very reflective, and having a moment and thinking of, like, what is the heritage that I am truly supporting versus what I'm told? And we all do this in our households. We listen to what our parents tell us. It's an indoctrination.

We're all just the sum of our ideologies, what our grandparents tell us, what our churches tell us, our leaders, versus taking time to self-reflect and be like, am I imprisoned by my identity? Do I really believe in what I say I believe in? And doing the time to research that, you know, before we get behind any cause, especially a lost one. I thought he'd be better versed on the history. There's always an assumption that we know exactly what we're putting our support behind. You know what the KKK has done. You know it's the largest terrorist group that's responsible for thousands of lynching, castrations, mutilations, and incarcerations of thousands of Black people. That's what you support? And he really thought. - What do you remember realizing about your own biases? - Yeah, I definitely have some biases I think because of my family's history with racial violence.

at the hands of Confederate supporters or the KKK. I just imagined that they forfeited their humanity in order to deny mine. So maybe there was a part of me that wasn't seeing them as fully human, and I had to ask myself, if I'm really concerned with progress and really concerned with change, how much of it is gonna be from my anger? Or how much of the change will come from comparing notes and questioning my own ideologies, questioning your ideologies, and seeing what common ground we can actually build upon. - I'm proud to represent a district that wants to retire this flag and bring forth a new flag. - As we recognize and understand the Mississippi of yesterday, let's vote today for the Mississippi of tomorrow. - Your journey lifts the lid on, you know, specific tools that people can be using to just ask, am I ready? Am I ready to try this approach? One of those tools is around fear.

- Engaging online in comments and messages, there's nothing like looking somebody in the eyes and seeing the subtle nuances for them to be able to relate to you and for you to relate to them. Yeah, I call it the industry of division pushing fear mongering as a means to keep a divide between us, the distrust, like, I'm fearful that I can't be vulnerable with you about my experience or that will be used against me. Any type of fear, it doesn't have to be this context that we're speaking about, like, but just really confronting my own fears of, like, what am I afraid of? And how is that unbeknownst to me showing up in my behavior? It has to start with you and those who are closest to you. If we can't really work on getting that right, then, I mean, having a conversation with a complete stranger about a divisive topic, you're not gonna get very far there.

Really, it starts with me breaking down my barriers first, and that will extend to my community and to my world. - Second tool that I've learned from you is around control. - That's nothing new seeing KKK graffiti, you know. My generation has to deal with it. My father's generation had to deal with it way back, all the way back, you know. Learning that I don't control much at all. I control what comes into my mouth, what I eat, and what comes outta my mouth. That's pretty much all I can control. - So maybe an experiment is to sit down and make a list of all that you can control. - You'll find out real soon it's not a lot, you know. - [Irshad] Third tool is around communication. - Yeah, that's a big one. I had to get off social media, I really did. I took, like, a six-month break and was just like,

Whoa, are these thoughts that are in my head my own? How do I really feel about this without the pressure of society telling me how I should feel about this, or that person. Communicating from a place of curiosity and intention is gonna have a different outcome than communicating from a place of control and fear. To disrespect your ancestors is not my intent. - [Louis] No, and I know that. - Just like I know you don't wanna disrespect mine. - [Louis] I know that. - But at the same time, I don't apologize for my protest because I do understand that- - [Louis] You wanted to be heard. - Yeah. - Last tool is around what you do call self-love. - I do. - [Irshad] Yeah. - I know that sounds fluffy, but I do mean it. - Yeah, what do you mean by it? - Do I trust myself?

Can I accept myself as a very complex human being with many flaws, many, many, many flaws? 'Cause if I really can't do that within myself, I can't extend that to anybody else. I will always come from a place of fear, resentment, guilt, shame within myself. I have to alleviate that in myself. - Yeah. In Moral Courage, which is as you know what I teach, we call what you call self-love we call confident humility. The self-assurance to accept there's always more to learn. - A hundred percent. - The first person that you should have a conversation with is yourself. And that's what Genesis did. And that is a process that happens from person to person and then leads to politicians. - And, in fact, that's exactly how it happened, is that, you know, even Republicans in Mississippi realized that their base is changing. And so we often hear this phrase, you know,

politics is downstream from culture, meaning culture changes, then the politicians, supposedly the leaders, when actually they're the followers, they follow the culture, right? So that if the culture of social change can become more humane, more dignified for all, that would be what many, not all, I know, but many politicians need to see. - During the civil rights movement, those young people were trained to resist violence. You know, they simulated people pouring things on their heads, pushing them, calling them the N-word. It wasn't just, let's go out here and all of a sudden be angry. - My concern about today's, many of today's protestors, whatever the issue, is that they often talk about justice, but they don't model it in the way they go out and communicate about it. And that is why so many people who would otherwise be sympathetic to their causes say to themselves, wow, you're humiliating your other.

If that's what you mean by justice, I don't wanna be a part of it. But what is to be done when those conversations are no longer useful? They are not giving us our demands. Often it's because they are positioned as demands. And so when people are told, give us this or else, no wonder people become defensive because now you're not willing to see my point of view. You're not willing to hear where I'm coming from. You're not willing to know me as a human being. You see me as an object, and this is a transaction. Justice, for sure, cannot work that way. Yeah, of course. However, if we are not getting the respect that we need, the humanity that we deserve, whether from the system, from politicians, and we're continuously treated as subhumans, as we are less than the others. And we keep asking for our basic human rights, to be seen,

to be given equal opportunities. And when that fails, especially when it comes to politicians, they continue to stand on the other side and refuse to put value into our lives. Then it is in my belief that it's permitted to shame them that they are not doing what they're supposed to do. - It has to start with conversation. It can't start with a confrontation. It has to start with something that you can get from each person as a give and take just to be heard. From there, though, I feel like there is a point where the conversations are happening and nothing is changing. When there's no change happening, that's gotta be the next step. - Right, and I think conversation for the sake of conversation is a dead end. It's conversation for the sake of shared and sustained action. Make it a journey. Not just like a hit-and-run, you know, because we all are creatures who need time to process new realities, new viewpoints, new information.

and to give each other that kind of grace, actually, is doing yourself a favor. You're still making the other uncomfortable, but not to the point where they'll just shut down because then you get nothing out of that interaction, you know? - [Speaker] By a vote of 37 to 14, the bill passes. (audience applauding and cheering) - [Louis] I see where you're coming from. That flag has brought me no harm, no hatred towards me. As much as I would like to have it remain who's to say that my wishes should outweigh the wishes of another. - People who didn't want that flag to come down, you know. I'm thinking about y'all too, and I know you can't hear me right now, but, like, hear me when I say, like, this is the move that's gonna bring Mississippi into the greatness that it can be. Mississippi can move forward now.

And, like, we need y'all to come to the table too. We have to speak to each other, talk to each other.

America’s culture war thrives on anger. Here’s how to escape it. | The Dilemma Ep. 2

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