foreign well hello there Amy how are you doing hey Mike I'm doing pretty good I've had a whirlwind of two weeks but happy to be here talking to you I'm glad to hear well you're on the hot part of the world I'm in a cold part of the world so oh yeah it's cool it's been pretty cool in in Melbourne yeah I mean it's starting to cool off a little bit here in Maryland and I mean I love the fall I love the fall I love the smells I love the temperature I love pumpkin you know and all the things but I also love the summer and I hate the winter so I do get a little sad when it starts to cool off too well there you go well I'm looking forward to um a drier time because when it in Melbourne Winters are just wet it's it's constantly wet and it's that's depressing Mike it's depressing it's it's mostly wet but it's starting to get a little bit drier

and hopefully, uh, well, summer is on its way, uh, hopefully we don't burn the country down as has become an annual festival here, uh, but beyond those pleasantries, I want to know, um, Amy, have you seen anyone recently destroying any children's toys on stage at a church? You know, since I saw this video of a guy called Greg, Greg Locke, apparently a Big Mac Mega pasta, uh, using a baseball bat with a Bible attached to it to destroy a quite a weapon, quite a weapon. I mean, I've heard about weaponizing scripture before, but like literally turning it into a weapon, that is, that is literally, I mean, during a sermon, yeah, it's like, um, gives the definition of Bible bashing a whole new meaning, yes, and I can't imagine the poor children, the poor children who were in the congregation watching Barbie's house get destroyed, yeah, yeah, I, I, and in terms of I've seen some weird sermon illustrations in my life, um, like visible ones that required parables, yeah, yeah, that was some weird ones as

well, that was weird. Um, yeah. I'm, I don't, I mean, there's some strong opinions about the Barbie movie, and I know, I know it's kind of polarizing. Yes, and what, what do you think it is fitting to destroy in the pulp? I mean, what children's toys should be destroyed? Well, I'll have to say, as much as I love Play-Doh, um, love the smell of it, love to play with Play-Doh myself, don't want my kids getting Play-Doh in church when they were little. Oh my goodness, it got on everything. Yeah, and it rubs that couch and everything. Yeah, their clothes. Yeah, so that, you know, the car ride home, that I could see actually, actually, there was one, there is one thing I would like to destroy in church with a baseball bat, and I would be talking about Satan and evil powers and Empire, and do you know what the thing I would like to destroy in front of everyone? What is it, like a coffee machine, Amy? I would love to destroy the coffee machine, because we all know you will be

the Grinch of church. Uh, well, yeah, I mean, I think we should. You want people to be awake during the sermon. I just, I just think we should all be drinking tea. I just can't stand the coffee. And everyone, people bring their little coffee cups into church, which I think is an abomination. So, that's a real distraction for you. Oh, just the horrible smell. It's, oh, it smells delicious. Divine for you, I guess. For you, I guess. Well, anyway, speaking, speaking of things we bring into church, I wrote a couple of articles, uh, on, on, on my, on my sub stack, talking about, um, you know, advice to complementarians in egalitarian churches, you know, yes, things to look out for, but also advice to egalitarians who are attending a complementarian church. And what I have here is like, you know, imagine you're like a military family. You're stationed somewhere, um, you know, you move around every few years, and yeah, there's a limited number of churches that, you know, you can choose from if you like, and sometimes you find

you know a particular church where you find this is the best place to go, but you know it's maybe not where I'm at in my convictions about gender roles, ministry, family, marriage, that type of thing. And this can swing both ways. Now, I wrote an article on this, particularly advice for egalitarian and complementarian churches, and basically it was like, you know, don't allow anyone to bully you, but at the same time, don't make it your mission in life to convert them to being egalitarian. And I was kind of saying, you know, play it safe, you know, tell people what you think when it comes up, and that kind of a thing. Now, you did have a response, which I thought was very, very reasoned and thoughtful. What was your response to what I wrote there, Amy? Yeah, well, first of all, I only responded because you asked me what I thought about it. That is true. That is true. I did.

invite you. This wasn't out of the blue. This wasn't invited me. It wasn't correctly by the Scruff of the neck and saying listen up bird. Yeah, and I appreciate that because I think that you do look for other voices on these kind of conversations and so you know from people who are coming at it from a different posture, position, point of view, experience, and which I do. And so when I read your article, I thought okay, this is diplomatic, you know, and this is even could be pastoral advice. But the whole time in my head, I'm thinking you know, if you're a man because it's just a completely different experience if you're a woman, egalitarian, or a woman who wants to contribute in the theological heart of the church, who likes to read scripture, you know, any of those things. I think it would be very different. And so you know, I'm coming at it reading it on the other side. You know, I was a believer in all that and you know, when I

really had to access the government of the church for harassment and slander, you know, at a pretty bad level. Um, I went through a two-year process that was completely traumatizing, and so the whole system was revealed to me to be something very different than I thought it was. Um, and to be unsafe. So, um, for me, I guess the whole premise of the question is disturbing, honestly. Like, um, you know, and I want to be friendly to complementarians and as fair as I can, but um, I'm looking at it thinking, Why would I like? I can't even. My whole family can't enter those spaces. They're just not safe. My whole body screams, 'You're not safe' going into a complimentary space. So, for me, I see it as a complicity, really, um, with a system that's harmful. So, yeah, I mean, I had a different take on answering that question. I feel like I'd want to share a more personal story um, with what I went through, and um, you know, I've just heard so many of those stories now from so many different

complementary churches and um you know I get so many people that are still in them saying should I go through this process to address harm and my advice is no my advice is this is going to take like two years well if you're in a presbyterian setting um you know it's different in a Southern Baptist or Baptist complementarian Churches their government's different so it'd be faster but um yeah I feel like there's a lot of harm but not only harm you know I'm you know maybe you're thinking okay you're talking worst case scenario but I think the whole church is harmed by um and it even changes like our the way that we read scripture uh hermeneutics is a social event really yeah so if you're if you're hearing from you know the men and being taught only by the men and scriptures read only by the men and uh the prayers are by the men um not all complementary churches follow that District of of it but I don't think that the word of Christ

has been really free from person to person, and I think that the church has been malnourished in a lot of ways, and it affects how we read scripture. Yeah, so you know, I think that there's some serious things to think about what you're trading when you're going in. I mean, what I want to say is that some of us do live in sort of these mixed environments. Like, you know, like I have students. I can have a class of students. Some will be complementarian, some will be egalitarian, and I'll have like complementary and female students who I would love to see go into pastoral ministry because I think they're very gifted and very capable, but they don't want to do that. And then I've also got some egalitarian students who would be really good, but because of their egalitarian views, they're not the best fit for some of the churches where it would be good to send them. So this is something we've got. I'm trying to

um negotiate as a theological educator who's also helping people find out what is their philosophy of ministry. I mean, and what do you do if you're, you know, part of a leadership team where you or a church where you will have different views in the church. Um, I mean, even complementarians have different views on themselves, egalitarians, oh yeah, oh yeah, themselves, and if you can't deal with the differences within your flavor, um, then you're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to deal with differences when you're looking at different somewhat groups, interpretations, or, you know, sections of the church. So, um, I'm very much trying to get people to find a way to, I mean, kind of Live and Let Live in the places and spaces they find themselves as best they can, but I do recognize that you can get um, certain species of complementarianism. Again, for me, let me offer the caveat, not everyone, but there are certain species of um, complementarianism that are in a toxic place with very toxic outcomes.

um now I mean I I tend to use the language of um complementarianism. Does not necessarily lead to a pernicious patriarchy, but it's definitely an amplifying um force in that regard. So, I've usually emphasized that the amplifying, and it's more conducive to be taking in this toxic and harmful direction. Now, I have to say that because I've got some great complementarian colleagues and students who are very um, very supportive of, you know, of all their students and all their things. So, I guess I'm trying to negotiate, you know, a a land of diversity and difference on this. But what I'm hearing from you, Amy, is that based on personal experience and and some of the effort of going into it, it's that can be a hard sell. It can be a hard sell if you've been through this trauma, and if you're wanting to invest in a church where you're you've either got the risk or the reality that no matter how nice and uh

accordion and open. You are. There's going to be barriers or there's going to be an inevitable level of hostility, particularly for women. So I'm a Theo. I'm a theologian, relatively well-known. You know, I can, if I get invited to someone's Bible study, you know, I'm going to be treated with a certain degree of respect as much as my professional qualifications. Whereas, you know, for someone else, someone who's like a, you know, first-year female, first-year freshman student, or, you know, a young mother, or just a young person in their career, or even maybe an older person who's just been in the church, and all the female lady, they made that, they don't have that little, the defense of being male and being a professional biblical scholar. So, I mean, do you have any thoughts about these sort of, these mixed spaces where these Village greens where you do get complementarians and egalitarians hanging out together or coming across each other? Yeah, I mean, I have respect for so many.

complementarian people you know or people who hold complementarian convictions, um, and then friends you know with many, but um, I guess specifically with the question about if somebody is an egalitarian and you're giving them advice about going into a complimentary in church, you know, that's more specifically speaking, I think um, is where I would, you know, respond the way that I did more in my article or response to you um, on my blog, but yeah, it makes it just depends on where you are, the context um, you know. I can be a lot more diplomatic um, outside of the church, but if I'm trying to worship and be part of a Covenant Community like this is uh our interpretive communities, you know, this is where we're to serve, and when you're viewed as a threat and your voice needs to be managed constantly um, and you're just cut off from so many of the spaces, you know, that's a real problem, and so I would think that if you already have egalitarian convictions, that should really bother you.

um, and so that's where, you know, I would say, like, you know, where you're going to worship then is going to make a big difference. And um, I think you could have more influence outside of those spaces then, and you know, I don't want to say, Oh, I can't learn from complementarians, because, man, I really still do. But um, and it really affects, I think, what you can learn, what you can contribute, and even uh, how safe you are, you know. And so, me, I thought Mike, I thought I was in one of those good complementary churches. I thought that I, you know, that, you know, we weren't, that was Fringe, you know, all that very patriarchal teaching um, and so it was very uh, disorienting, and then uh, you know, caused a lot of disillusionment. I mean, there's so many layers to this. Yeah, uh, take away the complementarian egalitarian part. I think that um, well, and it is kind of goes along with this hierarchy thing, but um, one hugely disillusion thing for me was

to find out how spiritually immature the leaders are. I mean, you just expect spiritual maturity in leadership, and to find how much everything is about this hierarchical authority and that, you know, seminary. Okay, they went to seminary and got a bunch of information, but that doesn't guarantee spiritual maturity, which has a direct correlation to the way we read scripture, our spiritual maturity, and so, you know, as a woman in her 40s, that was shocking to me. So, you know, that's a huge layer of it, and you know, this woman just wrote me today about she appreciated my work on friendship between the sexes, but she wanted to know if I'd considered writing about friendship between women in complementary churches because what she's seeing is a direct correlation with this patriarchal teaching in complementary churches and this obsession with authority that women even take that on in our relationships with each other. So, you see this constant, like, I need to mentor you, like, you know, like, it's not just a coffee, it's, uh, you're

being mentored kind of thing um and that this hierarchical uh framework enters into all our relationships uh not just man to woman but woman to woman and and to child and you know all all that so I think there's a lot of layers to it that it's a lot bigger um than you know the little things that we the little differences that we want to say that it is okay that's that's I don't know there's a lot of rambling but um no no I mean I'm thinking I'm thinking like a whole bunch of different things like um like one of the places where this has been an issue is in University Ministries where these are not churches although they can have like Bible teaching you know hours some of them do create their own little sort of their own churches or their own worship thing particularly for right you know for some of these remote universities in like you know in remote towns in Australia where you've got like um you know you've got like a population of 30

000 in the town, and there's a university and a hospital, and you've got these kids who, for them, the university group becomes their church. And they have a Sunday service, and those leaders have been, I mean, I know numerous places where they're wrestling with the sort of gender roles and issues and authority. And, you know, the parents sent them off to this university and this college because they thought it was a good, you know, a good Christian group on campus. And then they found out that women are being allowed to preach, or, and it's so, there's been a lot of, like, you know, politics in the Australian Christian university scene about, you know, how prescriptive they have to be on gender roles for each particular chapter allowed to make up its own mind on this, or do they have, like, a top-down and different and different sort of Christian student associations in Australia have really wrestled with this. Are we a church? Are we not a church? Are we a ministry? Are we parachurch then?

how do we do we need to take a stand on this issue? Do we need to have a conviction on this? And you can imagine it's quite messy. The issue is about, you know, are we a church? Are we not a church? Do we have to be complimentary in or egalitarian? Do we have to pick a side? It's been a very, very complex place. But I like what you said about, you know, relationships between women. My dear wife, Naomi, used to be part of a thing called the women's ministry. Like, how to describe it? It was basically for the wives of ministers. It was like a group for them. It was like the pastors' Minister Ministry wives Network. It was a kind of a group, and it was kind of good. They would do their own conference. They would do their own thing. I wouldn't have said there was necessarily a hierarchy in it, but it did have its own culture. It did

have its own kind of, um, you know, way of doing things. And, you know, I mean, my wife, Naomi, got a lot out of it in the times that she was there, but it was this kind of, it was its own thing. It wasn't, and it did have its own kind of culture that I thought was interesting. And every now and again, the husbands would come in, and we'd, you know, catch up with, it was a bit like a seminary reunion sometimes, I guess. You see the different people, um, but studying the sociology of that, I think, would definitely be interesting. And, you know, and how that is a mirror, a replica, or an innovation, or a transformation of normal church culture. So, I wonder if the sort of the ministry wives environment, you know, what does that tell us about complementary and culture, the varieties, the diversities, the structure, in whose hands does power really lie, um, yeah, in some sense. So, the questions there, yeah, that'd be an interesting thing. I mean, are you

attempted to explore this thing about relationships between women, um, in compliments. You know, a little bit like when she, you know, I read this email thinking, uh, she's really hitting on something here, you know, um, and she wondered if I'd want to write about, you know, friendships with women. But I don't know, you know, you got other things to write on, you've got other things to write. I'm just trying to back out of some of that environment, you know. So, it is very interesting coming from where I came from, you know, who tried to actually write a book, um, directed to church leaders, thing, you know, invest in your women as disciples in the church. Like, I wasn't even hitting the leadership stuff, like ordained ministry kind of thing, but just like, what is a disciple? What does a disciple do? And are women disciples, you know, less than male disciples? Like, are we not allowed to be disciples? And what is the great honor and privilege of being a sister in the church in that way as a layperson?

um I was, you know, labeled as very dangerous for doing that, you know, so I mean to me it just revealed, okay, I can write within the bounds of the Westminster Confession of faith and uh it's not, it doesn't mean the same thing for women that means for men. Yeah, that's true. That is true um I guess if I, if I had to pick it's just fake. Yeah, yeah, that is true. That is true. Yeah, we can, we can, we can kind of spin it any way we like. I mean yeah, people can say well these are the bounds that you're free to move in how can confessional but and you're not but exactly there's the woman, there's the boundaries and then there's the invisible boundaries. That's why you've got to see the Barbie movie because there's a whole monologue about the invisible rules that women are bound by. Oh yeah, that's true the invisible rules. Yeah, always have to be thankful, always stuff like that. So okay, right, right. Well, I guess I mean if I know if I if I did

have a pick a book I'd like. I'd like to see, but I think the one I would like to hear a book on, or even a talk, is on male fragility. You know, the sort of the... there is one, what's it called, Men Explain Things to Me. Yeah, maybe not a Christian book, but yeah, very feminist. Yeah, maybe something about... well, not all complimentary, but the somewhat fear men have of women, or of being perceived as being woman-like. I think that is a big thing. That is a big thing, yeah. And just how misogynous is that. Yeah, well, I mean, well, he's saying you might be surprised to know, Amy, that I have some interests and attributes that are very masculine. Like, I'm very good at sports. I used to be a paratrooper in the Army, but I also kind of like musical theater, and I hate it. I'm not surprised. I hate fishing, and I have no interest in

cars. I like, you know, you, yeah, you lift up the hood or the, don't you call it the hood, you call it the hood or the, yes, Hood. I know that. Look under that, like, I'm, you know, I can say it. That's definitely an engine. There's no doubt about it. You know, I can, I can change oil. I can fill, I can fill the water, the winds, okay. That's about the extent of what I can do, yeah, the winds. But I am, I am less, but for anything else, like if you want to change spark plugs or something, you know, I'm gonna watch a lot of YouTube videos, right, right, to do that. So, you know, I mean, I think not everyone meets The Stereotype of either being male or female, and you know that there is that, there is that kind of thing. And I think, I think men do be get a little bit fragile that they won't be perceived as being as manly or as male as the rest of their peers because they, you know, they might

like something ranging from gymnastics to art. So yeah, I mean, I, you know, I, I do, I do wonder whether that's something to be looked at one day, but that's, um, that's probably for some, it's probably for someone else to do, that's probably for someone else. So, but there we are. But um, I don't know, maybe I'll write an article. Yeah, maybe I will. Maybe, yeah, maybe I will do something on male fragility, um, or the fear of not being perceived as male enough by your colleagues. So um, yeah, I'll give it a go, maybe in the future, maybe in the future, Amy. But anyway, Amy, for people who are very interested in you and what you do, what's new in your world? Um, well, I just got back from Grand Rapids, and I got to film some videos on my upcoming book, The Hope in Our Scars, and that's about rising the church, rising from disillusionment, and being able to see Christ in it from the underground, is what I call it.

um, so I'm doing a video series too that goes, you know, you separate from the book. So um, selected as the hunter event Academy um, and so I recorded videos for that and had quite a heck of a time getting there, flying there. Flying is no fun anymore, not that it ever was, yeah, but um, you know, missed my second connecting flight and had to get an Uber because it was too late to rent a car. It's like 2 A.M. and here you are like, here I am, a woman traveling alone in the city at night, going to a house in a secluded area, an Airbnb on the river um, and I have to get an Uber. So that's kind of scary uh, I did that uh, and you know, the guy's name is Gordon. I'm like, that's the name of a serial killer right there, Gordon um. So he's dropping me off 2 A.M. and it's creepy where I'm going at night and very dark and he says, you know, this reminds me of a blind date I went on a long time

ago where I had a good time, dropped her off, and a couple of hours later, her mom called me, asking if I knew where she was. And turns out she'd gone missing. He hit my suitcase out of the trunk, so um, turns out she was missing for three days. He's like, Oh, she was alive, she was alive. Um, turns out she drove to Florida with a girlfriend or something, but I think she was trying to escape her family. But anyway, all that to say, 2 A.M. I got up at 8 o'clock to do my videos, and um, the next day I had the pleasure though, so I'm doing some discussions on the chapters with different people because I feel like the book really, you can get an even greater benefit, I think, if you were to read it in a discussion. You have a discussion group that you're doing it with, and so we wanted to model that a little bit and some additional videos. So I recorded two chapters with Kristen Dumay, which was a lot of fun, and also two chapters with Chuck to grow, uh, which

was the first time I met Chuck, and what a pleasure that was too. So, I had a really good time. That was the really fun part, was being able to do discussions because I don't really like reading from a monitor and staring at a computer with everybody staring at you, staring at a camera. Not my most comfortable thing to do. Yeah, I can imagine. I can well. It sounds like it'd be a great video series, Amy. Uh, yeah. What about you, me? Oh, well, so many things. Um, I've been made Deputy Principal at my college, so I'm doing a lot more admin stuff, trying to provide leadership. Um, wrote a book with, um, with Enter Your Right, Jesus and the Powers. So, that's something that's coming out in the future. Introduction to Luke Acts is coming out, and I'm gradually working on a book about the historical Jesus, about the life of Jesus. And I want to write on, slowly writing a book about the Roman Empire in the third century. Um, wow. Because, so, yeah, wide-ranging, wide-ranging interests, and also um.

and also working on my plan to gradually steal all the world's coffee beans. Um, but that last one's taking a while. It's taking a while, yeah. Yeah, coffee beans don't have to pry those from my hands, cold dead hands. Don't worry, I'll just sad hands. I'll just send in Gordon to go get them. Yes, yeah, that's good. Well, Amy, it's always a pleasure talking with you, and uh, yeah, you as well. And I'll catch, well, I guess I'll catch you, and we'll catch everyone on the next time we have another episode of Birds of a Feather.

Should Egalitarians Attend Complementarian Churches?

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