A while back, I had on Sam Esmail, the creator of the acclaimed television series Mr. Robot. Because it continues to break artistic boundaries, I asked Sam back this time not to talk just about the series but the process of such an imaginative mind and what we all may learn to increase our own creativity. Sam, it is such a pleasure to have you back. We had such a great time the last time, am I right? We had a great time. Okay, so I told you when I was done, I had to make an experiment. I've never done this before, so this is a first. Okay, what I usually do is, as we did when you were here before, we talked about the topic, the subject, and the words and emotions that my viewers could relate to and feel a part of, and that's what I think we did quite well together. But as I said, because this is literally at this stage of the game, in my opinion, the most creative show on television, I just can't help but say that I'm a little a few Civ. I wanted to

bring you back to just discuss creativity itself, and I know for myself that creativity is an interesting thing because I believe that everyone has it, but yet there are people that are able to draw it out so that you expose an insight to humanity that is different. Yeah, I mean, I think you hit the nail right on the head there because ultimately every choice that we want to make when we're making the show boils down to what are we trying to say. I mean, that's what I always sort of lit with my costume designer, my production designer, my cinematographer, my actors. What are we saying? What are we doing? I mean, other, you know, what we don't want to just be going through the motions. We want to say something, otherwise what is the point? And it hopefully arrives at insight, but, and I don't know if we can ever always be that wise or that, you know, insightful, but at least the attempt is there, and at least the attempt is there at every detail and on at every level. But as you say, I always

have a problem almost with the word attempt or try, and I'll tell you why. Because it's like trying to pick this cup. Well, you're not trying; you pick up this cup. You don't try; you do it, Sam. There is a little bit of a difference. My son even came to me, so you know the thing I want to ask Sam. I said, What? 'Cause I didn't even realize he said, Sam gives a lot of headroom to Elliot in the show. And a lot. And I was, he was curious about what that was. So let's even start with that because that's a perfect example, Ivan. When I, after he said it, I noticed it too. There's not an attempt; there's a purpose that you did that. Yeah, absolutely. And the purpose of, in that example, is, you know, how do we get into Eliot's head? That's always, that's always the question. And the, you know, that's a choice when we do come, when we frame our, are any of our actors or our characters. There's almost a second-hand nature that

how you do that. Well, if you do a medium shot, it's this, and you have this lead room, and you know characters, and here's the rule of thirds, and you know you almost have to stop at every turn and say, Well, wait a minute, why are we doing that? That is robbing us of an interesting choice that we could be making that either gives us insight into our character or insight into the world or insight into the show. And that, so if with this example, they had room, well, I wanted, we're inside Eliot's head. I wanted the world to feel a little off-kilter, a little off-centered, a little not, you know, a little more disorienting than what you're typically used to. And so we made that choice to have that sort of be the visual style of the show. What do I do? Why did you start writing a journal in the first place? I thought it was the right answer, the right answer to what? Controlling my life, my wife. Well, she drove her car that day. She did.

everything right. She always was seatbelt hands at 10:00 and 2:00. She was the most perfect driver I never met. It was annoying. She stayed alive, never went above or below the speed limit, stopped at traffic signs. She followed every rule, and then one day, none of that mattered. As my son, when he's a filmmaker, and he looks at it oftentimes as every frame is its own picture. And then when I was again through his eyes watching Mr. Robot, I noticed that you also, it's not just the scene that you're thinking of, it's the frame by frame. Yeah, it's an amazing amount of detail. Is there a time when, in fact, you get a paralysis of analysis sometimes with so much detail? Well, I don't believe in... I think a lot of people do find the show a little intimidating because there is a lot of detail and can feel dense, but I feel like that's not... To me, that's not a problem. That's not an issue.

that's our job is to really enrich it with as many details as possible because again at the end of the day. I think we have to be saying something. I think the typical thing some or not the typical thing but unfortunately the conventional. The conventional thinking sometimes is to document the action. You look at a scene you're and you know this person's got to say this and then leave the room and you're just trying to document that. I think there's so many more layers that you could do to fill that out. Well what does it mean what's the morality behind these choices even if it's as simple as you know a couple breaking up on one leaves. Well what what are you trying to say other than just that because if you're just saying that then you're not really saying anything. Who are you this your house. I've been here for hours. I wanted to confirm that this wasn't a waste of my time. Well what about my time. My time is much more valuable than yours. Speaking of I've only allotted 28 minutes for this.

conversation, which is very generous of me, so we should. Okay, I'd like to leave. Oh no, you wouldn't. You've waited so long. Sure that you want to know why that is. If you indeed believe that your time holds any value. [Music] You've been here close to four hours, and you never thought to walk out the door. The door was locked. I've always found to us fascinating inventions. They aren't the entry to unlimited imagination before you open any door. World filled with possibilities. It's right behind it, and it isn't until you open it. I realized such potential they bring to our minds, and yet a lock stop to you all of that. Oh, I see. So you used the word thinking a few times. One of the fun things I talk about with my son is the writing process, and we've both come to this conclusion that writing is thinking. It's kind of funny. You have to do the craft eventually, put the pen to the paper. Yeah, but for the most part, what writing is and creating is thinking. Well

I you know, it's interesting that you say that because I just did an interview with creative screenwriting, and you know, they kind of talk about the writing process. And so, they sort of ask me what do I do, and I told them nothing. Like, most of it, I mean, most of it is not me at a keyboard typing the words down. Hours of it is me just sitting there thinking, me at a restaurant with Emmy thinking, me in a hotel room thinking, me on a vacation thinking. It's constantly about problem-solving and refining what you're trying to say and finding the story of what you know. Because when I have an inkling of what show or movie I want to make next, it comes from somewhere, and it's almost like I got to go through this analysis of where is that coming from deep and down inside. What am I really trying? Is I think it's one thing, and I, and by the end of it, I mean, it's almost ultimately something else, something deeper. But that's authenticity. That's almost the definition of

authenticity. That is what enables us to relate to a man. If you, as I said, if you took them out of a series and just had this man next to you, you couldn't relate to Elliott, right? But it's the authenticity that you give to art, to creativity. I think that is what does make it so relatable, no matter what the subject is. Yeah, I mean, authenticity is a good word, especially given with our show, the whole element of hacking and technology. We tried to keep that, keep the whole world very authentic because I think in a lot of ways prior films and movies about hacking didn't do that. But I think what you're talking about in a deeper sense is, is he a real person? And is he a person that I know? One thing that I think, again, conventionally, we lean on plot a lot of times way too much and put good plot and inevitably has to make sense and you have to kind of understand it. The audience has to kind of understand, but you

don't remember plot. You remember the characters, and I really deeply believe that. And you remember what they're about, and who they are, and what choices they make, bad or good, and that will ultimately resonate more than the sequence of events that happen on the screen. But that seems like the way that that resonates that way is because of all the drilling down, yes, that one must do. You seem to, it's almost imperative that, and I think I want to share this with my viewers, that this is what they can do too, is when you have a creative concept, don't just let it float there as this creative concept. Drill down into it. Be curious about what it is. Be curious about what it is that you find interesting about it. I mean, that's the one thing. I mean, there's this old way of, there's all the Hollywood trick of, you know, taking two movies and coming up with a high concept, like, you know, Jurassic paws, I think was a pitch at one

point like you know it's Jurassic Park, but would you know wolves or something, and you know they try and mash up these two concepts until they find one that hits. It's interesting, and then they make the thing, and then it kind of stays always on that soup surface level. And other times, writers will, you know, and not in such an obnoxious way, do it with other concepts. So, you know, I really wanted to tell this story about the thing I've never seen in a movie or TV show, and I kind of want to explore that, and I think it'd be cool. Okay, that's the first sort of blush at what you should do before you do really do pen to paper. It's now drilling down to, well, why is that interesting? Why is that something that you either will think would be entertaining, but on the deeper level, why? Why is it relevant? Why is it necessary to bring up and talk about and spend millions of dollars and ask an entire crew of people to come together and produce this thing? I mean

you're asking a lot for people to make this. What is the relevant sort of, you know, the thing that must be said about this story? And the beauty seems to be that blending of that talent that is required to do the drilling and then the craft itself, right? We forget that there's, in every field, from teaching to law, from medicine to show business, people, as we started the show, are creative. But how do you blend that craft and talent to get to that creative moment where it is released? See, to me, craft... I always... You're absolutely right, you know, and I don't really know how you define talent because I've seen a lot of movies where the craft is impeccable and there's no... There's actually a great TV show on right now where I watch it obsessively because the craft, from everything, from the directing to the writing to the performances, is just so great and executed on an almost near-flawless level. But I don't know if, on a deeper level, it resonates with me and

sometimes I prefer a movie that maybe isn't like the most polished, that maybe is a little messier, but there's something about it that's wild, that resonates with me in a way, then and doesn't let me go, and shakes me up. But how do, how does one know? I have so many creative people that watch the show, or at least want to be creative, that's the other problem - there is a time when one has to say, Do I have the right stuff? What that I find, there's the internal element in my opinion. When you're a writer, a director, a filmmaker, you almost have no choice if you're going to really bare your creative soul. It's because you couldn't go into a corporation and work. You had to do what you had to do. But then there's always that second-guessing, Do I have the right stuff? and that balance, and where do you find it? Is it within? Is it without? As a combination, any filmmaker who's good and self-aware of

themselves at whatever level they're at probably still has that do I have it, do I still have it, maybe I had it before, but do I have it now. I think the right question is do I have something I desperately need to say that cannot be said by anybody else. So that goes back to then the part where I said you almost have no choice, right? If you are going, you almost don't have your right, you don't even have to ask that question, right? Because it's a non-question. Well, I remember when people would say because it, this happened a lot to me as you're growing up and you keep telling your parents and your friends, I want to be a filmmaker. Well, the obvious thing with that most people say is, Well, okay, and if that doesn't work out for you, what do you do? And my response was always, I'll just die trying, I guess, because I wasn't ever, ever thought about an alternative. I never thought of a plan B. I mean, I could

always get day jobs and pay for rent or whatever, but at the end of the day, I was always a filmmaker inside me because that's what I needed to do, to sort of fill the thoughts in my head. And you know, that could be a dangerous thing to tell people, especially people who are kind of getting up there in age, and they still are hanging on to wanting to be a filmmaker. And I say it's great to be dangerous, especially about something like this. It's great to be dangerous and passionate about this. You can't succeed without it. It's just that, and by the way, like you said, doesn't matter how long it takes. It's not, and by the way, success could be measured in many ways. You may reach just one person on a YouTube. It doesn't matter if it's what you've got to do. It is what you have to. Yeah, right. I mean, when you, and then you

know to talk about that in terms of what you create. You know, I think that's another misstep I see people do, and it's tempting, is you want to cater to the audience, you do a lot of fan service, you think you come up with a concept because you think that's what people will like. And again, it goes back to like our older conversation about Elliot. You really got to do it for yourself. You really got to tell the story that you know you like deep down the year. You've got the integrity on your line, on the line, and that you're not trying to do fan service or you're not trying to outsmart the audience to figure out what they think, what you think will be popular. I mean, that is the wrong way, and that ultimately is sort of a misguided way of even trying to be in the industry in the first place. I think ultimately it comes from you. What do you want to see? What is it? What isn't out there that you think you can fill? Then I was doing some

good. It's part of this project that I was gonna be artisan special, and now that turned out to be a mistake, like everything else. That's the point. You do nothing, might as well do nothing, but yet we're human beings, and rejection, yeah, rejection in the business we're in, is the thing you face more than anything else. You can't help it. I mean, it's just part of it. So, there has to be an internal mechanism that allows a person to rise up above that, and I think if anything, that's something I want to share with people, that you can't be, and you mentioned before, I don't care if you're a 70-year-old filmmaker and you haven't made that film yet. If that's what you got to do, you got to do it, but it still is painful as a human being to deal with it. So, there has to be a certain element of tenacity, of never giving up kind of feel within oneself. I think rejection is key. I mean, look, my middle name is rejection. I've been

rejected numerous times that whatever that brings. I mean, think about the filmmaker, and there are a couple of filmmakers out there that got it, you know, they're at however young they were, and they were essentially never rejected. It's, and just forget about filmmakers, people in general. There are those people that just kind of coast through life, but the people that the art and the movies and the TV shows and the books and the characters that I relate to the most are the people that do get rejected, the people that have gone through struggle and that have conflict in their lives, that had to overcome. That is so rich. Rejection can be really rich to art. I actually think it's really essential for art to be really good, is to have that sort of pain that goes with rejection. And so anytime, and I really encourage anybody who's gonna go into any sort of creative field, you get rejected by somebody. The minute you do, the minute you start feeling hurt or feeling pain, use that, use that.

remember it. Remember that feeling. Write it down, take a picture, whatever it is that you need to do, because I guarantee you that's gonna help the next piece of art, book, whatever it is that you're trying to make. I think it's gonna really help you really understand what that means of that wow, that's beautiful. That is beautiful. Now though, let's play something. Let's go in the opposite direction with success. I told you in the green room that I recently had James Gunn on the show. James Gunn, the director of Guardians of the Galaxy. And jokingly, I know this was what he was saying. He said, But then he said, 'No, I'm being serious.' We were talking about the, I gave him a line from the film, and he then went on a beautiful tangent off of that line where he had to, him and Chris Pratt, after the success of the first one, they had to really work hard at staying humble. And I think that's an interesting element, because when you hit success, boy, if you all of a sudden lose

it and it goes to your head. That'll be as detrimental, way more in fact. It's the opposite of rejection. It would have a negative effect if you didn't realize that it's still not all you, right? It's the blessing, it's whatever it is, spiritual, social, soulful, whatever you want to call it. That's what's got to remain in there, and I bet you that's pretty hard to do. It is hard to do, especially because at the level of James Gunn or even, you know, at the level of Mr. Robot, there, you're in a pot, you know, everything's out in the open, it's public now. So your successes and failures are under a huge, you know, magnifying glass. And you, so you do have to have that. So, but it goes back to what I'm saying. You cannot cater, you cannot do fan service to the audience. You have to know what you believe is good, and you have to be honest with yourself when you know what you did wasn't great. And what if you didn't appreciate it? If you didn't

like, and you could have done better, so those go hand in hand. And so, I mean, you know, with Mr. Robot Season 1, critically acclaimed, Season 2 had sort of mixed a mixed response. What I know deep down and what I know that like there are writers and our team news that we felt Season 2 was stronger than Season 1. I mean, we really, really believed that. It doesn't change the fact that sort of the perception out there that it wasn't. But at the end of the day, if you hold on to that core that it's got to be about how you feel and the integrity of what you like, what resonates with you, you know, I think that's the only way to go through a creative process like that. Otherwise, you start contaminating that with what you think other people are gonna like or not like. So, in that sense, it is the enthusiasm and passion within that truly is the creative force. It absolutely and the integrity, you know, I throw that in there, you know. Yeah, we said that.

elephant is set. Yeah, yes, yeah. I think those three things combined trump anything else: craftsmanship, skill. I think all that can kind of come after, but those are the three sort of, you know, the three keys to getting your story told. So, when you have the inspiration, that's the thought, those three things then have to fill in that and help you drill down. You know, it takes work. I mean, you can have all the enthusiasm and authenticity that you want, but then you got to do the work. Wood, that's what those things require of it. You know, you can't just, you can't just again go on first blush. So, here's the idea. I'm so inspired, I'm so enthusiastic about it, and I believe it to be true. Well, that's where the authenticity, I think, really kind of drills down. To be out really authentic about it, you got to drill down and think about why it is that you want to tell this story, and then that starts

to reveal even more interesting answers and really, really, really start to give credibility to what you are trying to do on an authentic level, and it will make you more enthusiastic about what you're trying to say. Sam, I want to thank you for your enthusiasm, your passion, just you. You've enlightened me and my audience, and I am so grateful. Thank you. And thank you guys for joining us. Now, before Sam leaves, I'd like to leave you with these words from Sam's acclaimed series, Mr. Robot. Before you open any door, the world filled with possibilities sits right behind it, and it isn't until you open it you'll realize such potential they bring to our minds. I'm Barry Gibb, Rick. Look between those doors and find that your potential is also filled with possibilities. Thank you. To connect with Barry, like them on Facebook and follow him on Twitter at Barry Camera. And to contact Barry directly, view past episodes of Between the Lines and read his weekly blog, visit us at BarryKubrick.com.

The Creative Mind | Sam Esmail with Barry Kibrick

The Creative Mind | Sam Esmail with Barry Kibrick