Hi everyone, we have a very special guest today. She is currently a partner at a big law in New York and is also an adjunct professor of law at New York University, Ms. Han. Hi, welcome to the podcast. Hello, I am Han Byun from New York. Please introduce yourself a little for those who are watching. Yes, as you explained earlier, I graduated from NYU Law in 2014 and have been working as a lawyer at a law firm for 10 years now. My field of expertise is taxation in the larger sense. You could say that I am a professional lawyer, and within that field, I provide advice focusing on the renewable energy development. So, can you explain your background for a moment? You went to high school in Korea and then came to the United States to go to college. That's right, I first came to New York in the summer when I was 20, a little later than many international students around me. Before that, I lived at Hweng Seong, a city famous for Korean beef.

located in Gangwon-do, Korea. Named Min-Jok Academy. I entered the international class in high school, and after graduating, I entered college in the United States with my classmates. So, did you encounter any difficulties when you first came to the United States? I don't think it would have been easy to adapt right away as a freshman in college. It was very difficult. In fact, I also had experience staying in the country for about a year when I was in elementary school, and I speak English quite well myself. In high school, I mainly prepared for college entrance to the U.S., so I felt rather comfortable language-wise, so I thought there wouldn't be any difficulties, but now that I'm here, I'm having a little trouble with very small things. For example, when I am going to see a professor in his office without realizing it, my first instinct would be to bow my head first and looking at him straight in the eye and saying hello felt so disrespectful, and

from there, I just became self-conscious about everything feeling awkward. So those small, insignificant interactions felt rather difficult. In fact, since I was majoring in business administration, I had to do a lot of group assignments. But maybe because I spent my adolescence in Korea, I had to live in college with foreigners. It wasn't easy to talk and befriend my classmates do that. In fact, New York University is known for its diverse student body, especially Korean and Chinese students. So even though there were more students who looked similar to me than students who went to schools in other states in the U.S., this was a bit of a challenge. It turns out that you have received proper etiquette training at the high school. Yeah, like when you see anyone who is more senior than you, you just bow first. So, did you first come to the business school as an undergraduate? Yes, that's right. New York University has an undergraduate business program called Stern, and it seems to be more famous.

in Korea for its MBA program, but a celebrity actor, Seojin Lee, also graduated from there, where I majored in finance and economic theory. I think it's really interesting, so I first studied undergrad at New York Business University. At some point after you entered the law, you decided that you wanted to become a lawyer and that you wanted to go to law school. I think I always vaguely thought that it would be nice to become a lawyer someday since I was young. To put it bluntly, really? You can say it, but it's a bit childish. There's a movie called Legally Blonde that I saw when I was young, that's a movie with Reese Witherspoon in it. It seems like there are quite a few cases where people were inspired to become a lawyer based on movies and pop culture based on conversations with friends around me too. Since I had been planning to study abroad for college since I was young, I thought it would be nice to go to law school after graduating.

but the most important thing was that since I was currently in New York while attending Stern School, I had the opportunity to intern at a hedge fund or a small bank office during the semester. But it didn't suit my aptitude, so I just decided that I should graduate quickly and go to law school, so I started preparing in earnest during the summer vacation of my third year at a university. How was the preparation process? Were there any tests or other things you had to prepare for in order to go to law school? In fact, the American law school entrance exam seems to be a little more standardized than the admission to other schools in the U.S., such as undergraduate or MBA programs. So, in some ways, it is more advantageous and easier for Korean test takers. For example, it is actually really GPA and LSAT. For example, it is actually really GPA and LSAT. I know that people in Korea take this exam called LEET for law school admissions.

so similarly we have LSAT, which plays a huge factor in the admissions process. Yes, as a foreigner, especially as a woman, I think it must have been very difficult to make partner. Is there anything you particularly remember or would like to say to other young people like you? In fact, this is not necessarily the title of partner, but probably more people in our industry will feel it as they become more senior with more than 5 years of experience. Now, no matter which meeting room you enter, and these days, after the coronavirus, conference calls will be held via Zoom. We do this a lot, but even if we include that, the number of people is 30, and there are many cases where I am the only Asian or there are only a handful of women. So? You may say this, but in fact I think it does help mentally to co-exist with those with a similar gender or race to you when working. Or, even if you want to benchmark someone and

use them as a role model. From my perspective, they are still a little similar to me. It's a bit weird to say it's a handicap, but I still want to benchmark myself by looking at people who are in a similar situation. But there are times when that's a bit lacking. In fact, I've been given advice to other women, but in fact, I still don't have any need for people of exactly the same race as me. Come out. Rather than looking for a similar female role model, I was advised that it would be helpful in the long run to maintain a good relationship with someone who may not necessarily be a minority per se or even in a completely opposite situation, and to maintain a good relationship with that kind of role model. But actually, it's easy to say, but it's hard to find someone you like, and it's also hard to work with that person for a long time. So, is there any advice for first- and second-year lawyers who are just starting out?

? Yes, this is actually an issue that I found very difficult when I was new in the workforce, so I have a lot to say. I told you that I was in charge of tax work at the first company I joined. The tax team was very big. I had a lot of junior and senior friends. There were many partners and seniors with years of experience, and as a result, they were divided into small groups, which caused some difficulties. For example, my partner was always organized into a team where I couldn't see the senior team, my junior team, and this team. It's a bit funny, but it seems to vary depending on where the office you're sitting in is located. For example, I was sitting on a slightly different floor from the floor where the main members of the tax team were sitting, so I couldn't help but feel like I was sitting there. Whenever I go out to eat a snack or go to the bathroom, I have to run into people and network, but

since I don't have that opportunity, they seem to entrust me with less work. In fact, due to my personality, I tend to go out very proactively and have small talks and work. When asked to do something, it was difficult to promote yourself and that kind of thing. I don't think there are many people who are good at doing that when they are just starting out. So, I thought about it a lot for 2 or 3 years and started looking for a job change. One of the good things about changing jobs is that sometimes the company announces that they will just hire an associate in this field. But in many cases, a specific partner needs an associate with 3 years of experience to help me with my work. I think I want to raise a junior. There are many cases where announcements are made in this way depending on the needs of an individual partner. So I think I found that kind of position at that time. A person who had just become a partner at that time said

that he had to form a team on his own. They were looking for a junior, and from my point of view, if they are the junior they chose, in the end, they will naturally be their person. So, I think they thought that they would be able to receive the job with a little more peace of mind, and also, during the interview process, we found out that we had some compatibility. I had a chance to check if it was correct, so in fact, I changed jobs when I was in my third year and have been working with the gunner I learned from for 7 years now. I think it's really cool. Because of this, it is important to build a relationship with that person, but is it possible that I did this a little differently? For example, when I started working in finance, the most advice I received was that work does not end at the office. If you happen to finish work early, don't go home right away. Be sure

to bring a friend or one of the above people with you and have a beer or something. I've heard a lot of people say that we need to build closer relationships and a little more trust. How about the lawyer? I also sympathize similarly. Now, I think it is important to have happy hour time together after work, or it is difficult to do so due to personal circumstances. Especially after Corona, I will go to work less often, and if I do that, I personally will do it right before I start work. A lot of people give advice like, “You have to distinguish between work and public life, and you have to completely separate your personal life.” Yes, I thought so too, but when you work closely with your work for a long time, you really have no choice but to say this. I went on vacation yesterday and this was great. Or, I had a meal with someone and something like this happened. Of course, there has to be a certain line

when it comes to having such conversations, but I definitely don't do things like naturally build some friendships anymore with people at work or something like that. I think it would be a good idea to let go of this obsession. In the end, it's all done between people, and I feel that even if you just make the same mistake, if it's done by someone you're a little close with, there really isn't such a fatal accident. Our work. People's lives don't come and go, and in fact, there are many things that can be fixed if someone just straps on the gun and fixes it, but in the end, I think it makes a big difference to how much trust we have on a human level and how the relationship is built up. It's really good. I think that's what you're saying. In fact, as I work, sometimes I have to cover for someone or correct someone's mistake. On the other hand, I don't usually feel that bad even if it's a very minor mistake. The friend I used to go with

seemed to feel a little different. Yes, that's right, and from the perspective of a junior helping me with work, it was something I had to do anyway, but it was trivial, but we were close, and this person looked out for my convenience in a humane way. It feels a little less unfair because you have to work overtime and work overtime, and the work product seems to come out naturally, so it seems like a virtuous cycle. So, wouldn't you have turned the tables and worked with many other juniors as a senior? Among the friends you worked with, are there any that you remember? Well, there are a few of them. In the end, the ones that leave a good impression are those with an attitude. Friends who are very humble and transparent. Nowadays, people often say this. Especially when working in the United States, you have to be very good at promoting yourself, you have to be confident, and you have to be active.

That is very wrong. It is true. It is true, but in fact, I think true confidence is what you have to do with yourself. I think it's the shamelessness of being able to communicate transparently about what you can do and what you can't. In fact, one of the most valuable pieces of advice I received when changing jobs as a junior was to not try too hard to be good at anything, but if there is something difficult or show your shortcomings without hesitation, and people will help you more and treat you kindly. Personally, these words really resonated with me when I changed jobs in my first three years. Now that I have become a manager, I have been entrusted with certain tasks. Rather than a friend who says ok and is very overconfident and then disappears and then comes back with a ridiculous output at the end, I should just say something. Even if it looks a little childish, uh, I don't know much about this, but how do you do this?

I think it's my first time doing something like this, and I have a tendency to want to help out a bit more if I give feedback quickly. And you're currently working as an adjunct professor at NYU's law school. Yes, it just so happened that the last week of the semester ended last week. Actually, I have to finish grading the final exam by this Friday, so I printed it all out and piled it up at home right now. You must have been busy enough with your work, but is there something that prompted you to take the class now? In fact, if the company hears this, they may not like it, but the first and most honest reason is that I can't work at a law firm anymore. I need an exit option. So I thought, what are some workplaces with a good work-life balance? So I thought about it a little bit, but I decided to go with Ph. Since I didn't have a D and I didn't have

any teaching records or experience. I thought it would be helpful to build up some experience as an adjunct professor in order to create a bit of a lecture evaluation record, so I really hit the ground running at that time. I created a syllabus by referring to the syllabus, and since NYU is my alma mater, I decided to start from there. So I sent the resume syllabus to the dean of the law school's tax program and asked him to do so. I said I would like to attend the lecture. Oh, it's not something that was announced, so I sent it directly to the dean. Did you contact me? Yes, I just really appealed to Georgetown and other good law schools. When I looked for lecture schedules and lecture offerings at Georgetown and other good law schools, there were some lectures related to renewable energy or environmental friendliness, which I mainly do, but NYU didn't have any. I thought this was an opportunity, so I appealed. I am

a person who does this kind of work, and our work is very hot these days. Especially with President Biden enacting the new law at that time, there are too many deals in this field, and if we train students in this field, they will get good jobs. From a law school perspective, the employment rate is the most important factor. You see, I made an appeal like that, and the feedback was very favorable, so from then on, it was very easy to get approval. So, were you always in contact with the dean? Or did you suddenly send a cold email while working this time? It was a cold email. Of course, the fact that I am a graduate of NYU Law School must have been an advantage, so I emphasized that. I also graduated from NYU, received a JD degree, and an LLM. I also did it part-time. It was so good. Now I want to contribute. As a graduate, I approached it from that angle and

created a schedule and sent it to the dean. The dean copied other professors and had me get feedback. I also took that feedback into consideration and modified the schedule. So I sent it to you, and after a few little administrative adjustments, we decided to open a spring semester course starting the following year. This year's spring semester was the second time I held a course. That's really cool. So, do you have any other plans for the future? Is it true? First of all, I don't know if this is my first appointment or if it's appropriate to say I'm being appointed as an adjunct professor, but I signed a contract for 5 years. I think it will be for 3 years in the future, and I'm also working hard to compile lecture evaluations in PDF form. Well, now, lawyer. What do you hope students taking your class will learn from this class? This is something I emphasized when I first contacted the dean, and it is something I also paid attention

to when making my course plan. I have now attended law school for three years, and now I am working part-time for about two years, called the Tax LLM program. I went there for 5 years, but I always felt that, although it is true in all law schools, the process was too separate from practical work. Of course, it is said to be on-the-job training while learning proper practical work, but law school is still a professional school in its own way. I thought it would be good to have a lecture where I could learn some practical skills, so I suggested this to the dean. In fact, when I plan the lecture, about half of it is composed of theoretical content, and the other half is about what I actually do, such as a template M&A contract or something. Create a template for a loan, such as receiving a loan from a bank, discuss in real time with students how you would mark up (modify) things if you were representing the borrower.

and do a simulation that involves a bit of negotiation. It's a bit similar to a case study. However, when I was a student, I hated class participation, presentations, and cold calling, so taking that into account, I structured the lecture in a way that I did not cold call but rather fed the lectures. So, were there any Korean friends among the friends taking your class? Uh, there was one person this semester. There was one person, and as far as I know, he was probably working in a different field and was taking the course because he wanted to change back to the field of law. Now, let's go back a little bit and talk about law school. In fact, American law schools are known to be very difficult, but I would like to know if there were any cultural or linguistic difficulties when you came to study abroad after attending high school in Korea, or if so, how you overcame them. I still remember

the civil law lecture on the first day of law school, which was exactly the civil procedure. But the first class opened, and I walked in. I remember it was a class of 90 people, but there were too many white people. It felt a bit intimidating. Even though I went to college in the U.S. for four years, I felt like I was finally in a foreign land. I was a little shocked. I really wanted to run away, and more than anything, I think many people know that one of the lecture systems that American law schools strangely like is called the Socratic Method, and they ask questions. But I really hate that, so I don't really like the presentation itself. I don't like it, so I'm embarrassed to talk, and on top of that, there are dozens of American kids sitting here, all speaking in English, and they all speak well, and I really like talking. So I think that was really stressful. It was one of

the things that was the least helpful and comforting. After completing the first semester, the grades are coming out. After receiving the grades, the kids become very humble. They become very humble. So from the second semester, everyone becomes a little more chilled. I give less presentations to my friends, and I also tend to bury myself a bit. It seems like you chose the method of . Now, how did you do your job search while attending law school? Actually, this is different from back then. It seems like it was a long time ago when you say it like that, but I know that a lot has changed from then to these days. In our time, it was very standardized. It really felt like something like summer in Korea, and open recruitment in the second half of the year. After the first year, the summer vacation is now an intern. After doing some research, I consulted with the school career office around August and came up with a list of 20 to 30

law firms that I wanted. If I applied there, I would be hired in New York around early August. In my case, at the Doubletree Hilton Hotel in Times Square. There will be an interview week for three days. Then, two or three law firm recruiting partners will come to each hotel room, and I will stop by each room and interview each room in 20-minute increments from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., as if it were a true speed dating, over the three days. So now, this is it. They make an appeal for 20 minutes in the room, and during a 5-minute break in the middle, they diligently go to the next room and conduct an interview. One funny thing about this is that since it is a hotel, the elevator is in Times Square, so there are probably a lot of tourists. There is an elevator. I'm always busy, but because the schedule is determined randomly, the hotel rooms I'm interviewing in are next to each other.

They're seven floors apart. So now, I had the interview from 9 to 9:20, and there's 5 minutes left. You have to go up seven floors to get to the next room. The elevators are all full, so you have to take off your heels, hold them in your hands, and run up the emergency exit stairs. It's almost like that, and the occasional tourist who happens to ride the elevator will notice and put on a suit. There were hundreds of kids there, cheering me on to do well, and I also talked about this constantly from 9 a.m. to 5 a.m., so I remember this once. I entered a certain room, and my voice became hoarse, and I couldn't speak. So what did you do? I also remember which law firm it was, and the partner gave me a bottle of water because I couldn't say Hi. But I don't remember getting an offer from there. I think I'd be so exhausted.

if I talked nonstop for 3 days like that. And if you think about it, 20 minutes isn't that long of a time, but is it really a time to evaluate something? In fact, everyone has different opinions, but in some people's case, it has already been decided. If there are ten or twenty resumes piled up, these people will already look through them in the morning and roughly select five or six people they like, and then those friends will be interviewed. Depending on how good you are or how strange it is, you may skip it, or if you are not interested and are too good at the interview, you may choose it. I heard that, but actually, by what standards did I get invited to the second interview at a law firm and did I not? Actually, I don't know. As I mentioned at the hotel, it is the first round, and when you are invited for the second interview, you go to an individual office and meet for 3 or 4 people.

and then an offer is made. But actually, at that time, you are invited. When I think about the interview questions, the most common ones are to go in and say things like, Oh, tell me about yourself, or Why are you interested in our company? And by the afternoon, I can feel it. These people are also tired. It's hard and physically draining to do that, ask strange questions. If you were born as a tree, what kind of tree would you be? I still remember this question. Even though it's been over 10 years, I was speechless at the time. There aren't many types of trees I know, other than apple trees and pine trees. There are also apples. As soon as I hear that question, I think of autumn fairy tales again. When I'm born, I want to become a tree, and I think people can do that, but what do you want to be? Since this is limited to trees, I want to become an apple tree.

I wanted to give people a lot of useful apples, so I said something completely ridiculous, and perhaps because I lacked creativity, there was no other feedback from the company. It's a very unusual question. Now, let's take a look at those interviews. I will start my internship after receiving the summer offer. So what do intern lawyers do? You can think of it as being treated and treated almost like a first-year associate at a law firm. You get it in line with a first-year new lawyer. You get more practical work than you think. And in fact, I was a student at the time, so from the perspective of our interns, I don't know what department or associate I am. I think that the internship process is not only an opportunity for the company to evaluate the interns, but also an opportunity for the intern to evaluate the company from the intern's point of view. So, in fact, some of my more capable friends interned at two places. It's a 10-week

program, and you report it in 5-week increments. There are a few cases like that, and there are cases where you have to have a little bit of luck and skill, but in fact, in my case, I don't even know what kind of partner I am in what department. I wonder if I'm compatible or if I come back with that person, I won't have to work, etc. And while I'm hanging out with my classmates, I'm thinking, These friends are my classmates. This friend is fine. Oh, this friend is a little tired. I think it's 10 weeks. Are there any interns competing with each other? For example, depending on what the offer rate is, I think the environment between people will change a lot. That's right. In our time, it was actually an unwritten rule that if you did a summer internship, you would get an offer more than 99% of the time unless you had a really big accident. But recently.

I've heard that there are cases where you don't actually receive an offer for 2 or 3 years. So in those cases, we can actually see a dynamic in which the interns are working a little more actively to be put into work where quality is more important, and the interns are working among themselves. It doesn't seem like there is much speculation between us, but I heard that the atmosphere is a little more tense. Now, is there any advice you would like to give to people coming from Korea to the U.S. to work or to other young people? In my opinion, Koreans are generally very honest when it comes to their abilities, but they also have a humble side. Of course, this generation's friends are better at promoting themselves and have strengths in marketing compared to their generation, and I know that, but a little bit. I think you also need a no-show mentality. For example, from my experience, I worked in tax litigation for the first three years of my career. I never even looked

at things like contracts, as they are commonly called, during the first three years of working. But, as I said before, I changed jobs. I changed jobs in my 3rd year, and now I moved from consulting to transactional litigation, and from transactional practice. People often think that you have to join as a new employee. In Korea, you often change your field of work, and then you get annual leave. Think about cutting your annual leave or something like that. In fact, even these days, I sometimes consult with my friends and juniors, and they say, I'm trying to change my field of work, so why not suggest that I cut my annual leave by about 2 or 3 years? I get asked questions like this a lot. Actually, I was young and immature at the time, so I didn't even think of offering something like that, but even though the shooter knew that I really didn't know anything, he never once asked me, How about joining me as a second year?

How about joining me as a first year? I've never said anything like this. And after that, we changed jobs together twice. My supervisor and I each time changed our field of work a little at each company. Now, the big picture is the same, but every time I do that, I show a little lack of confidence. In the same case, the gunner took me with him out of fear that I would become someone, but I am now in my 5th year of experience, so I only have 2 or 3 years of experience, so when I said that it would be a good idea to cut that short, the gunner told me something. I have 4 years of experience as an assassin. If you are a 4th year professional, of course you should know how to do something like this, and if you are a 5th year professional, you should know how to do this. People think that such a thing exists, but in reality, that is just an illusion. Anyway,

if you are a really smart and capable second-year student, you will work as if you were in your 5th year. Even if they have been working for 6 or 7 years, there are friends who are working at the same level as those who have been working for 2 or 3 years. In our work and field, the field that is most directly related to annual leave is pay. So in the end, cutting annual leave means reducing pay compared to the year I graduated. It means that I will go in. From my point of view, there is no need to do that. You can just go and become a slightly inadequate 5th year. There is no need for you to become a superstar in the 3rd year. In the first place, what is the specific rubric for the 3rd and 5th years? It was very refreshing for me to think that I didn't have this kind of ability, but that I had to have this kind of ability. Because in my emotions, I thought

it made sense to go for the 5th year when I didn't have 5 years of work experience like this, but in reality, I just breathe and live in society within this company. I hope that my Korean friends will now know that with just the sweat and experience accumulated over the past 5 years, they can appeal to a certain level by saying they have 5 years of experience. I think this is something I can relate to very much. In fact, I can always say this when I think about the work I have done. There was no one there, so I thought a lot about wishing there was one.

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