- People aren't telling the truth anymore about what they think. The levels of self-silencing in America today are actually significantly higher than during McCarthyism. - We, the people, are divided less about the issues than about each other. Fact is, we don't trust one another, and my experience with this reality is firsthand. I teach people how to create cultures of trust in their workplaces, and I can't begin to tell you how often executives have cried, literally sobbed, that the pressure to say the right thing all the time has undermined their people's willingness to collaborate. In this episode of The Dilemma, you'll meet a neuroscientist with a whole lot of evidence that just because the most vocal wants something doesn't mean that everybody does. Our brains, though, mistake the loud crowd for consensus, which reinforces the lie that this is what we now have to believe. See how resentment becomes mistrust?

- If I'm going through the motion of explaining myself, I'm explaining myself because I do want you to agree with me. I mean, that's why I am doing it. Otherwise, I'm not gonna engage. - And I think that we're so hung up on loss, we're so scared of risk that that end of something, that losing of people in your corner, it's terrifying, but wow, when you get to the other side of it, feels so much lighter, so much better. - Who's ready to stop this silent spiral? And stop it not by lashing back, since backlash accelerates mistrust, but by modeling moral courage, inviting different points of view, even if they clash with your views. You prepared to do that? Welcome to The Dilemma. - What do you mean by trust? - Trust is vulnerability. Trust is when I don't have enough information, when I can't just be certain

that I'll still extend that vulnerability to you because I believe that your choices won't hurt me, and that's the backbone of social trust. Because if I think letting you make your own choices will, in some way, hurt me, then I have no other choice but to try to control you. - You felt the visceral impact of being distrusted when you and your family were on food stamps. - Yeah. I fell out of high school with a 0.9 GPA, but at the same time, my girlfriend, who was my wife for 29 years, found out she was pregnant. Within a couple of years, we had two kids. I was working minimum wage jobs, and we ended up on welfare, on food stamps. And my youngest son at the time, Nathan, he loved chunky peanut butter. So, getting the stuff, and I'm being careful of what you get, and I get up there and you put it on the little conveyor belt.

And the woman scanning it makes a noise, and she says, Sir, you can't use food stamps to buy chunky peanut butter. And it's like people in line looking at me, and you just want to crawl in a hole, right? You're like, I... So I'm like, Okay, so I can buy smooth peanut butter, but not chunky? You know, these kind of things. I was trying to make good choices for my kids, and here's like this institution telling me, No, like, we'll tell you what food you can have. It's so frustrating. And I think that it's one of those things, where this kind of issue of trust, particularly social trust, which is trust in people you don't know, right? We know from all the research that it is the single best predictor of the stability and prosperity of a democracy, which is like you've gotta be willing to extend

a little bit of trust to people that you don't know for this to work. This is why what worries me more than anything right now is we have the lowest levels of social trust ever recorded in American history right now. - This is where your unique work comes into play. You're a private opinion researcher, not a public opinion researcher. What does private opinion reveal that public opinion obscures? - People aren't telling the truth anymore about what they think, right? They just don't feel like they can be honest with each other. The levels of self-silencing in America today are actually significantly higher than during McCarthyism. Let me give you some concrete examples of things. We know for sure that a majority of Republicans publicly say the election was stolen from Trump. It is 14% in private. It is not true, they don't believe it, but they know there's a right answer. On the left, close to 60% of Democrats

publicly said they supported defunding the police. It is 9% in private, okay? But they know there was a right answer, okay? Your brain assumes the loudest voices repeated the most are the majority. In a social media age, it just goes haywire. If you just take X, formally Twitter, Pew Research found roughly 80% of all content on that platform is generated by 10% of the users. And when you look at that 10% and what their views are, they are not remotely representative of the broader public. On almost every social issue, they are extreme. If 10% of people hold a view, but you think it's 80, unless you're willing to go against what you think your group believes, you're gonna say nothing, right? You'll self-silence, you'll go along to get along. And pretty soon, the only voices anyone's hearing from are the extremes. - Mm-hmm.

Okay, so let's get to the very sticky, messy, real-world dilemmas that institutional leaders have: CEOs, university presidents, you name it. I'm gonna assume that many of them are making a good-faith effort to promote trust or at least support the need for trust internally. Hey, we hear you. We are taking stands on issues that are important to you, 'cause if they're important to you, they have to be important to us. See, we're not callous, we're responsive. - Yeah, yeah. - Are you saying that private opinion shows that not only does this damage public trust in these institutions, but doesn't do a damn thing to help internal trust? - Oh, at all, yeah. One of the most interesting things we did two years ago, we did this very large truth serum study looking at... One of the issues was whether people wanted CEOs to be taking public stances on issues, right?

Now, publicly, people say, Yes. Oh, yeah, they should be out there. Privately, there is not a single demographic or a majority even remotely wants that to be true. - Everything that I read about young people- - Yep. - Is that they want their leaders leaning into social justice issues- - And they will say it publicly. And when then you give them the truth serum and it's a tiny minority of them that actually wanted, but they believe that this is what everybody wants. And so they say it. Here's the good news. There are things you can do. You don't have to go out, and wave the flag, and rally against your group. Literally say, I'm not sure yet, and watch what happens. - It's how you express what you honestly believe that can make all the difference, right? And it goes right back to your point. You know, I'm not so sure that's true.

Can you help me understand what I'm missing about where you're coming from? - You're onto something what's really important here. We think that what people want more that I think is for people to agree with this. - Yeah. - Which is always nice. Like, it's nice. - Sure. Feels good. - But actually, in terms of the real benefit to social trust and because it's actually just being understood. The research is crystal clear on this. You and I can disagree vehemently, but if I believe that you actually took the time to understand where I'm coming from and we walk away saying, Agree to disagree, but I believe you respected me, you showed me that the grace and my dignity, we're good. But we have to find the moral courage to be honest with each other, and we have to find the civic courage to make it safe for people we disagree with to do the same.

- Which when you exhibit your own moral courage to speak your truth in a way that doesn't automatically make others defensive, you are creating a permission structure for the civic courage.  
- [Todd] That's right.  
- To then emerge.  
- That's right. But usually what happens is if you just saw a little bit of doubt, and I'm not so sure.  
- Yeah.  
- That's usually permission for everybody else to also not be sure.  
- [Irshad] Right.  
- And watch how fast it changes.  
- Learning those emotional grounding skills to be able to have difficult conversations, I think, is something that, like, is not really taught. And so, like, truly getting to that place of reflecting, Why am I responding this way? Why am I having this intense reaction? And harm does not mean fatality, it doesn't mean the end, it doesn't mean that the conversation should stop. It is just an invitation to go deeper.

- So, you're absolutely right. We're not teaching these skills of what I would call moral courage, speaking truth to the power of the ego brain, so that the truth you want the outside world to hear can land in a way that you intend. If you can ensure that the way you start the conversation allows for the other to know that, This is not about judgment. This is about curiosity, this is about empathy, and I will go first in the listening department, so I assure you it's also about humility. - Yes, absolutely. - If you can make that clear from the get-go, emotional defenses come down all around. Let's go back to what Todd mentioned, that the research is unabashed. That when people are heard, just understood, that is what we crave as human beings. We don't actually need to be agreed with. Is there one scenario that each of you has in your life right now, in which you are gonna remember to strive to understand

and even to learn from the other? - No. - No? - No, no. - Why? - So, I believe if I'm going through the motion of explaining myself, I'm explaining myself because I do want you to agree with me. I mean, that's why I'm doing it. Otherwise, I'm not gonna engage. - So you're not, and again, I thank you for being completely transparent here. That takes guts, I appreciate it. So what you're saying is, Right now, in this moment in my life, I can't come up with a scenario in which it would be worth it for me to take that kind of time. - Take that kind of risk. I'm going to use risk instead of time. You said, Take that time. - Yeah. - I'm gonna say, Take that risk. - What's the risk? - The risk of arguments, job loss, demotion, isolation, like- - Okay, gotcha.

- Those are real things.  
- Gotcha.  
- So it's not about the time, it's about the risk.  
- Okay, and so, fair. And so right now, there's no scenario that you can just come up with in which the risk is minimal enough that it is worth giving this a go. Understanding, rather than agreeing with.  
- What do you think?  
- I think it has to... I think you can do that if it's a powerless person who can't punish you.  
- He agrees with me.  
- He does agree with you.  
- He agrees with me.  
- I think if you do voice your own opinion, which is different from someone else's, if that spreads, maybe the person you're talking to is tolerant, and Jesus-like, and that won't... And will welcome, maybe. But if it gets around sometimes, someone else decides, You know what? I'm gonna hurt him because he said that.

- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - What if the world is big enough? - Hmm. - I know, I know. I know that's like radical, but like what if the world is big enough that that thing that is the risk that other people judge you for, that are against you for, what if that's just making the way? - If you were close to me, I'd give you a hug right now. Just, and just like, bless your heart. - Oh, no, no, this is not coming... This is not coming from a place of naiveness either. - Oh, not... No, maybe we are just a little older? I don't know. I just, I wish, but no. - Like, this is coming from someone who's worked in the music industry, an environment that's preferable to men. So much so, so much so. And I've lost relationships and business ventures on... predicated on that, you know?

And thank God. Thank God there's other... The world is big enough 'cause I've met other people. - And do you think you would have met other people had it not been for those lost opportunities? - No, no. Because you need something to end in order to create new. And sometimes, and I think that we're so hung up on loss, we're so scared of risk that that end of something, that that losing of people in your corner, it's terrifying, but wow, when you get to the other side of it, feels so much lighter, so much better. The world is big enough. - I really have to agree here because for example, when I came out as gay to my very conservative family, I lost a lot of family members. But my relationships with my parents, my uncles, and other people became so much richer and more honest. And I do believe not only is the world big enough,

but if you're seeing truth-seeking as an investment, it is worth the risk. And I'm okay with taking the risk, and I'm okay with a few losses along the way because the gains are much bigger. - Hmm. - When I asked at the beginning of this conversation for all views, you know how sincere I was. And I am. And I'll tell you, I didn't like hearing your, No, but I'm grateful for it. - Thank you. - I am grateful for it because it reminds me I don't have the truth. That is part of the gift that the pushback represents is that it keeps me authentic in my intention to be curious, empathetic, and humble. For me, those three qualities are what make life worth living because it's the path to learning, and I learn from those I love. So I don't know you all that well, but I love who we are together.

America’s mass spiral of self-censorship | The Dilemma Ep. 1

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