hi guys. I'm Jenny Allen, and I'm excited for you to get to experience this incredible conversation that I had with Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus on The Chosen. Now, if you've never seen The Chosen, I would encourage you to go watch all of the seasons. It is transformative. I first stumbled across it when it was in Season 1, and I remember just weeping in my bed as I watched just a new portrayal of Jesus. And what was really special and unique about this portrayal, and I really believe it's one of the reasons The Chosen has reached so far in the world, is that Jesus was so emotional. And I think we've often seen Jesus portrayed as very steady and calm and not reacting to things. And yet, this Jesus smiled at moments that you would have thought he would have been angry. And you see just this humanness that he was living on Earth with, that he was God, fully God, but he also was fully man. And he experienced the breadth of emotions. And so, some of you know I've been

working on a project called Untangle Your Emotions for a long time. I've been studying emotions, and one thing that I believe is transformative and even provocative about this project is that emotions are not the enemy. Emotions are not sinful. We so often demonize emotions and try to get rid of negative emotions, and yet God is emotional. We see that most through Jesus, and he made us in His image, and therefore we are emotional like God. The gift of emotion is that we're able to be fully connected to God and other people in a vulnerable and deeper way. I love this conversation. You're going to get to hear me ask a lot of things I was curious about as Jonathan played this part and decided how he was going to portray Jesus. He did it in such a powerful way. So, welcome to the set of The Chosen, and I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jonathan. [Music] Roomy [Music] Jonathan, such fun to meet with you, and I

am really excited just to hear your thoughts on playing this role. This had to be very surprising for you. Did you imagine in your wildest dreams? Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for sitting down with me. It's an honor and a delight for me as well, Jenny. Um, no, I never imagined I would be doing this, playing this role. I don't, you know, I, at some point in my life, I thought, okay, I'm going to endeavor to become an actor full-time. Uh, I couldn't have predicted that it would be as Jesus and your spiritual journey plays a part even in you saying yes to this. Yes, oh, 100%. I believe in order for this to actually come to fruition in my life, I had to um, completely surrender my own will of what I wanted for my life, my concept of what my career should look like, specifically my career, and uh, fully let God uh, take charge over um, you know, what my

future would look like. So, you got a phone call. What? How did you know about this opportunity? I played Jesus in short films for Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the show, for his Church's Good Friday service. So, we had already had a working relationship for like the previous four years, and a shorthand. Those films essentially became, with his short film The Shepherd, became like a workshop for the series and how he would approach the series, how he approached biblical subject matter. So, it was a matter of just picking up the sandals and putting them on again and doing it for a lot longer period of time. Was there a time where you realized, Wow, there are going to be a lot of people that watch the show and see me and think of Jesus? It's surreal, specifically with the character of Jesus, because you quickly realize that the celebrity experience playing Jesus is unlike any other celebrity experience at all. It's not like, it's unlike a Marvel character, it's unlike a Star Wars

character. It's a relationship that people are keying into, a character that people are connecting to because of their existing relationship with Jesus, because of the deepening of that relationship with Jesus that they already have, which inevitably is the most intimate and important relationship that a person could have. Or it's introducing them to this person of Jesus that is making them question what they knew or what they thought they knew about him and compelling them to get to know him if they don't know him. So being the face of that encounter, of that experience, all of a sudden transforms them when they're met with me in a store, and they're like, Wait a second, you know? And I've had a gamut of emotions and reactions, people. Some people will literally just start crying. Other people will ask me to pray for them, pray over them. I've had people who've been suffering with depression, who had brain cancer, ask me to lay hands on them, pray for them. Um, I

once had a this was one of the most emotional, emotionally overwhelming experiences I had. I was um, I appeared at a conference with a pastor um, to an arena full of people and um, afterwards as I was leaving, I met this woman who had her son with her and he was suffering from cerebral palsy and he was in a wheelchair and he couldn't talk, he could just kind of make sound but he couldn't talk and he couldn't, you know, obviously walk or anything like that and uh, so I thought I was just going to say hello and there were fans and stuff and she proceeded to tell me how their favorite episode from the first season is uh, Jesus's healing of the paralytic that comes through the roof of Zeb's house, James and John's father's house and she said wouldn't it be great if God did that for my son and she's looking at me and I'm like thinking like oh I, it's I don't as far as I know I

don't have that power, right, that gift, but I'd be happy to pray with your son. Would that be okay? And she's like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we prayed, and I gave him a hug, and he was really happy, and she was happy, and I left, and I burst into tears. I bet because I thought I, there on some level, I must have let her down. Like in the back of her mind, she may have been just hoping, like maybe, maybe there's a chance, and trying to live up to that is impossible. It's just not possible. What does that burden feel like for you, just knowing so, so many people are getting maybe their first taste of who Jesus is? I think it's a privilege, but I was so affected by media that I had watched this miniseries called Jesus of Nazareth, one of my favorites. And I mean, that's the power of media. And so when I see people reacting the way they do, I know that the Holy Spirit can use

whatever he wants to reach people and to draw people closer to God, and it sounds like that's what God is using this for. So, yeah, have there been moments that you felt confused as to how to play it, that you wonder what Jesus was thinking and what he was feeling? I mean, I wonder all the time. I can never get hung up on it because then I'm assuming responsibility and like control over this, and this has nothing to do with me. It's me then controlling and not surrendering. So, if I'm truly surrendering, all I can do is say a little prayer that I usually do, like, Lord, let people see your face and not mine. Let them hear your words and not mine. And let them experience you through me in this project. It's so, so interesting to hear you talk about it because it's really what we all should be about our whole lives, right? There's no difference between art and life in this situation. How can we help people see you?

and how do we represent you well, and you just have a unique, a little bit of a unique role in it. So, let's talk about just some of your favorite moments. What have been the moments where you finish the scene and you're like, God, better the times where I feel like I really connected emotionally to a scene. For easy context, just going to, you know, referring to the first episode of the series, the end of the episode. Jesus has an encounter with Mary Magdalene. It's the first time we see Jesus in the series where he meets her, how he meets her, and what ensues as he meets her, and the things he says to her, and her response, and their embrace. That's something that when we did it felt sacred. That and a number of scenes in this, but that is always one where I, every time I see it, it's like I'm seeing it for the first time, and I get completely moved by it. And to me, that can only be, that can only come from above. Like, there's, there's

something so specifically sacred about that scene when it can move people repeatedly. Uh, you know that that's, that's has something that's has nothing to do with the human interaction. Well, and to play a character that everyone, like you're saying, is so well acquainted with. Yeah, there's a million ways that could go badly. True. So, God is cheesy, you know, like, uh, you know, on the nose, uh, just cliche. Yeah, uh, preachy. And this, fortunately, our writers are fantastic, and uh, and we, we don't, we don't have that come up. No, at all with this, with this series. It's, it's, it's one of the reasons why I, I did it, because in working with Dallas, he's such a great writer, and um, you seeing the material. It all starts with, with the material, with the script, right? And if the script doesn't work, I, I can't bring myself to do it, because then I have, then there's, there's an amount of lying that's involved, and, and a lot of people have this

misconception that to be a good actor, you have to be a good liar. That's the an anathema to the truth. It's the opposite of that. To be a good actor, or a great actor, or an authentic actor, you have to be completely devoted to truth. Truth amidst circumstances that are fictitious. You know, it's you're telling the truth in fictional circumstances. That's it. You can't, the minute somebody starts faking a moment or lying, or they're not connected, you're like, I don't buy it for a minute. I can see his acting. I can see her acting. You don't buy it. So, you have to be devoted to the truth. And if there's scenes that are badly written or falsely written or just cliché or on the nose, it's, I can't. And especially with Christian Media, it's why so much of it has a bad rap because it's there for some reason. I think

people get and this is forgive me because but it's a topic that I get passionate about. It's like PE. People tend to think like, Well, just get the message out and don't worry about the quality, and there's an audience for that, sure, but it's to me that's a very small AI. That's the choir, and the choir has already been preached to a thousand times. What about the people that really need to hear the message, that need to be exposed? Well, speaking of that, one of my favorite things in my research was watching the ginz Gathering. And so, you know, there for context to anybody listening, there were about 12 jenz people that came in that didn't know each other, that all came from different backgrounds, really compelling stories, and they just watched The Chosen. Yeah, they didn't tell them what they were watching. They just put them in a room, just said, We're going to show you this series, and on most of them didn't have a relationship with God or definitely had a broken one. What

did that mean for you to see the Next Generation really wanting God because of this show because it spoke to them through a media that they're very well acquainted with. It spoke to them in a language, right? They understand readily, a language that they're fluent in, which is media and entertainment. I mean, most of them are raised with screens. Yeah, I wasn't. So, it's to kind of have that and all of a sudden then to have this unexpected approach to the subject matter that's not coming from this sort of a concrete pulpit or something that feels they don't relate to, judgmental or feels angry or feels like that they can't relate to it, to see it done in a way where we believe on the show is closer to how Christ probably approached people that didn't know him or believe he was who he said he was, and you know, be washed with love and forgiveness and compassion, and then feel like relatable human beings at the

same time, yeah, uh, that I think that shocked many of them and opened a few of their hearts, uh, pretty wide. He said, Leave, it's not for you. Don't touch me, L. Lily. Lily, are you okay? I, I have to go. Leave me alone. Leave me [Music] alone. Mary, Mary of Magdala [Music]. Who are you? How do you know my name? Thus says the Lord who created you and he who formed you. Fear not, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by [Music] name. You, I don't [Music] mind [Music]. There were moments, and I'm just going to speak really personally to this, that I had read in the gospels before, and they felt to me like moments that Jesus was very angry with his disciples, that he was frustrated with them. And you play these parts, I mean, let's go with um, the competition you see with, is it James and John, things like that, moments like that where you just laugh like you just did, kind of, and there's so much grace.

for everyone was that always clear to you in the scriptures, or do you hope for it, or do you what does that felt like to work that out? Because I do think it surprises people. It's like a parent with a toddler. You H how much can you reprimand the toddler when he messes up? He's just learning, and I kind of have to take that approach when thinking about, well, what would Jesus do in this situation? They don't know what they don't know, and he's trying to teach them what they don't know, and it's going to take a minute. Yeah, it took three years of his ministry, and they still didn't quite get it, you know? Yeah, until really until the resurrection. And I want to camp here specifically for just a minute because I've been working and studying on a project about emotions, and I think we've really confused emotion. I think we have demonized it and thought even that God is looking down on our fear or our

anger and judging it. And so, I think that has throughout the history of the church at different points been the case, and so certainly is now. And so, there's a lot of shame around our own emotions, right? I mean, you play Jesus very emotionally, and you're comfortable with that. There's no tension for you in that. No. I mean, when you think about the fullness of Jesus's humanity, I believe that he had to experience emotion on a level that was above and beyond even regular humans. Like, the God of the universe is now made flesh. He invented emotion, right? He created this. He's the author of all of it. How is he not going to feel for his children, you know? And I honestly, I mean, and he did. It's only written maybe once or twice where, you know, Jesus what? Like, where there's a display. But then usually with the gospel writers, there's very specific reasons they put in the information that they do, given the audience that they're writing for each.

of the gospel writers wrote for different audiences, so God was fully human. He had to have been sad and happy and joyous and frustrated and angry. Well, and I even felt like afraid in Gethsemane, right? I mean, oh my gosh, yeah, yeah. He went through everything. Mind-blowing when you think about it because you, it almost feels heretical to say that God would feel those things. But I see, I don't understand how it could be taken by anyone as heretical, but how he created fear. Fear is all the verses that say, Do not fear. Yeah, so I think it has become just, but that's not. See, joy is what we're supposed to be, and we're supposed to be courageous, and we're, you know, these things without fear. You have no experience of joy. Like, how? There is no contrast. Do not fear. Do not let fear overrun your life. Do not let it rule your life. But there's somebody running at with you, running at

you with an axe. Okay, get out of there. Use your fear to motivate you to run or do something or, you know, like just to get out of there. It's healthy. All the emotions are healthy. One of the first things that I learned when I was training in York as an actor, that no emotion is better or worse than the other, one is more valid or less valid than another one. It's just not because it's all part of a human experience. And as a well-trained, complete actor, you need to be able to access any single one of them without judgment, without shame, without any of that. Otherwise, you'll be a very limited actor. So if there are scenes coming up where Jesus is angry, well, God was angry at times, but it's a righteous anger. It's not venomous. It's not specific to the same kind of anger or justified in the way that it would be or wouldn't be for humans. It's God's Wrath. And why is he wrathful when

do we see Jesus angry? Well, it's when the authorities who claim to be, you know, uh, the spiritual leaders of the people are then taking advantage of the people and, um, mocking the temple. It's, you know, and so Jesus is flipping tables, he's using a whip. You're like, Whoa, you know, I'm excited about that as an actor. So, we don't get to see that very often, but I mean, and even in season 4, this season we're shooting right now, people will see sides of Jesus's emotional life they haven't seen before. Do you feel there are ways you have encountered Jesus in a different way playing this part, just internally for yourself? I'm constantly being asked to go to, um, go further than my surrendering. I feel like there are, uh, things that I have to contend with more than previously. I, and I, I think as a, as a person who believes in the idea of, um, spiritual warfare, I'm so blessed. I've got so many people that are praying for me, and I'm

praying for so many of our, uh, for our entire cast and crew and everybody in media, uh, for you, for everybody that is on this crusade to keep Christ in the culture, to keep, uh, him centered in people's lives, and, uh, to be able to continue to get to do what we do, um, and for, you know, uh, just, just, uh, people's, uh, strength, strength, and courage to be increased, uh, when we're under so much, uh, scrutiny and, uh, fire for just having our own beliefs. What would you say to the person that wants to know Jesus, that wants a relationship with him? Start talking to him. It's good. You just start talking to him, and then if you're feeling pretty good about that, pick up a Bible, and then if that goes well, find a church. I'm just picturing what Jesus thinks of all this. What do you think? Don't picture too hard. I, I, I'm afraid to know. No, uh, you think he's entertained? I think he's, I think he, I think he's pretty entertained.

I would hope that he's at least smiling. I think so. Well, what I love is that I love more other people, and I love God more after I watch the show, and that just causes me to believe he is very pleased with [Music]. It. The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face toward you and bring you peace [Music]. People must know. People must [Music] know.

Jesus & Emotions // An Exclusive Conversation with Jennie Allen and Jonathan Roumie

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