What's so interesting is this: the debate over banning or divesting from TikTok. You've written extensively about the legal issues, particularly highlighting two key sentences in the briefing to the DC Circuit that you felt cast doubt on

the national security arguments. Didn't you just go through them for us? Sure. Some key issues revolve around whether a national security risk from the app actually exists. The government claims the risk is that the Chinese government might manipulate the app to spread propaganda or surveil Americans.

To mitigate this, the US government has negotiated with TikTok for years to store data within Texas and implement data controls. However, the US government remains dissatisfied with the level of protection, despite stating it has no information indicating Chinese government manipulation

of the app.  So it's all speculative. That's the government's difficulty. But is potential and speculation enough to justify protecting citizens?  Exactly. The DC Circuit Court of Appeals believed

the government was uncomfortable; it distrusted ByteDance and TikTok, and therefore could ban it from the country.  So, the question now before the Supreme Court is

The United States Supreme Court should take the case. Can you give us context or examples in the past where we've really seen court sides with a government in this way around national security, that even though it is theoretical in nature, it's important enough to overcome any rights

to free speech? So this is a very unusual case. There's nothing that is on all fours with this case. The closest case involving foreign propaganda in the United States is a case from the 1960s involving literally Chinese Communist propaganda. And the Supreme Court unanimously in that case said Americans

have a right to receive Chinese Communist propaganda if they so want. So there's not an ideal case, I think, of cases around national security, like the Pentagon Papers case where the US government said it's too dangerous for the New York Times to reveal the secret history of the Vietnam

War. And the Supreme Court said, actually, no, we don't believe that. It's not a kind of immediate risk that you are pointing to. And that's what TikTok's argument is going to be to the Supreme Court.

Do you think that that argument will carry weight if indeed it does get to the level of the Supreme Court? Well, if it goes to the Supreme Court, I think the same question is going to be before those judges as was before the D.C. Circuit.

Do you defer to the judgment of the political branches of Congress and the president when they insist that there is a national security risk and there's no other way to protect Americans than to ban the app? What's so interesting is it feels as though perhaps the

Worries coming from the user base have diminished significantly. And as we're just saying, only a third of US users, or the US population, supports such a ban. So is there context as to how that might need to change? I mean, you're no marketing expert, but it almost feels

as though the government needs to go out and make its case a little louder. The government tried to make its case for the last six months. So the ban has been in place, has been, you know, the law has been in place threatening this ban

since April. And so since that time, we've seen the government say that China controls this app and therefore it's unsafe. But Americans have continued using the app. So they, you know, Americans have decided that they don't feel unsafe despite the government's views.

In fact, Donald Trump started using the app. In fact, Joe Biden started using the app. Kamala Harris started using the app. Every politician is now using the app despite the fact that it's apparently, you know, possibly prone to foreign

manipulation, though the government again has said we have no evidence of that thus far.  January 19th. Therefore, it gets banned. It has to be sold before seeing that being the outcome here. I think that's becoming closer and closer to the likely

outcome that TikTok goes dark on January 19th.

TikTok Seeks to Pause US Ban Pending SCOTUS Review

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