[Music] All right, so let's talk about the third strategy again. This is another one that's very, very popular amongst FIRE and fine proponents, and this is a Roth conversion ladder. Now what's interesting, we love Roth conversions, and we talk about Roth conversions all the time, and we have tons of retirees and early retirees that utilize Roth conversions as part of the process. And stated very simply, what a Roth conversion is, is where you convert some of your pre-tax assets, whether that being in a 401k or an IRA, into Roth, which sounds amazing, and we do that often. But when it comes to retiring early, a lot of people are doing these Roth conversion ladders as a specific and unique means to get access to their Roth dollars earlier than they would otherwise. Yeah, I think that this is, this is once again, I love Financial mutants because you know that there is some brilliant person that came up with this 'cause we were talking about 72t, and I gave you that, that, that c that if you're talking about Roth money.

you don't actually get tax-free growth until you're 59 and a half. Well then somebody say, well, wait a minute, there's got to be a way I can still work my way around that. And somebody realized in the tax code, there is tax-free growth and then there's what's called Roth basis. So if you do a Roth conversion, wait the five years after you paid the taxes on it, that's now your basis in the Roth. So it gets you around that 59.5 exclusion. This on paper looks awesome, but there's some issues. Yeah, there are some. So before the issues, again, I want to just show a picture of exactly what you said. How's it work? You put money into your 401k. You can go all the way up to $23,000 in the pre-tax 401K this year. At some point in the future, you convert that to Roth. You convert some portion of that to Roth, and you're going to pay ordinary income tax at your tax rate in the year that you convert. If you then

wait five years. The clock starts when you start. When you convert, if you wait for five years, then you can pull out the basis penalty-free and tax-free. You can start getting to that converted amount, not the earnings, the converted amount penalty-free and tax-free. Well, now you can rinse and repeat, and rinse and repeat, and rinse and repeat. So, if you think about this, let's assume that you are 50 years old, and you're planning on retiring, and you want to have some assets that you're able to begin drawing on starting at age 55. One of the things you can do is at 50, you can convert to Roth, pay income taxes, convert to Roth, pay income taxes, convert to Roth, pay income taxes. Do that every single year. Well, then when you get to age 55, once that very first conversion has aged, you can then withdraw that $30,000 of converted funds, not the earnings, from your Roth completely tax-free and penalty-free. So, in your 55th year, you can pull out the conversion you did at

50 in your 56th year, the conversion did at 51 in the 57th year, the conversion you did at 52, so on and so forth. So essentially what you're doing is you're going and grabbing those dollars that you had previously converted. It gives you access to your WTH before you would otherwise have at 59 A5. But again, I just don't think that it's perfect. I think it's good, but I don't think that it's perfect. Let's get into what it is good at and what it's not good at because you'll notice on the pros side, it is nice and look, the government loves this too. There's no limits on the conversions 'cause real the government has always allowed anybody. Like right now, I could go and start converting a portion of my pre-tax or tax-deferred assets into Roth, and the government's all about it because back in 2010, they took away all income limits. This is what allows Roth conver backdoor Roth contributions and other

conversion strategies is because there's no income limits on doing Roth conversions. So you can do it. The catch is though, you got to pay income taxes on these conversion amounts because you are creating ordinary income. When this happens, that's right. And so in theory, it can be tax advantage if your tax bracket decreases, meaning if you are funding your 401k when you're in a higher tax bracket, and then when you go to convert those dollars, you're in a lower tax bracket, then it can be tax advantage. But remember, one of the things a lot of people do is they begin converting before they get to retirement, so then it may not be as advantageous as you think. Let's think about this 'cause I was, I was when we were doing show prep on this. I was thinking about who is the person 'cause I saw the not. It's a tax advantage if your tax rates decrease in retirement. Well, we're talking about trying to create a bridge account. So the only way this works is if you are say

let's go back to this person that's retiring at 45, and maybe for they had enough after-tax assets that they, they're now, they're earned income is gone. So they're in a much lower, so they're living on those after-tax assets. There a bridge account for a little bit as part of this, they're doing WTH conversions while they're in that lower tax bracket, and then in 5 years they would have access to those B even though they haven't reached 59 a half. I could see how that is, but is that the reality of what most people are doing? I that's the part that I don't because what I have seen in my practice is that people who have large after-tax assets like these people in the fire movement who worked for tech companies and other things, they're going to have such a big basket of these Roth asset. I mean of the after-tax assets that when they have the option of converting it to a Roth are they going want to use Roth is their

Bridge or they going to keep staying on that after-tax train. We can keep on with the cons, but that's what I where I think this thing falls apart. I'm right there with you because one of the cons is there's a five-year delay on you accessing those, but I'm going to say that's a con because you can access it at five years. Because here's what we love to see Roth assets do exactly what you said if you're going to go through the work of converting dollars to Roth the way that you maximize the benefit is let those dollars grow tax-free for as long as possible. If you just wait 5 years and start pulling that money out you were pulling out some of the most valuable soldiers in your army of dollar bills. We'd much rather see you convert dollars at age 40 or age 45 and let those dollars grow for the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years even then you can have amazing tax-free growth inside those rths if you pull it out after just 5 years man.

they're they're of leaving the dance early well and I and I don't mind sh this is one of the things and we have fire clients that we've had quite a few conversations on this one of the hard Parts with with with being in this situation is a lot of times people who who who are able to save 40 to 60% of their income you're good at your job and you make a great income and your income as you're getting more and more into your career your Peak earning years are probably going to be in your late 40s early 50s this is right as you're in the exit when window there so if you're in those Peak earning years in that higher tax bracket and you're trying to do this WTH conversion so you have a bridge of that 5 years it just doesn't align because you're paying at much higher rates it's it's it's a very small window for people whose tax rates actually go down to do these conversions while

Are Roth Conversion Ladders the Best Way to Retire Early?

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