National Trauma: Hungary's History and Cultural Impact

Hungary's lasting trauma from lost territory reflects how nations can experience collective grief and identity crises.

### Managing National and Personal Trauma: A Conversation on Hungarian History and Personal Convictions
* 🇭🇺 Hungary's national trauma from losing a third of its territory after World War I is still palpable today, with the **Trianon Pact** considered a **significant historical event**.
* 🧠 The discussion delves into the concept of **national trauma** and whether a nation can experience it, comparing it to **individual and cultural trauma**.
* 🍷 The conversation shifts to Mark Manson's recent trips to Hungary and Portugal, exploring **alcoholism in Hungary** and **anxiety in Portugal**.
* 💼 Personal anecdotes are shared, including Drew's decision to **leave a PhD program to work with Mark**, which faced **criticism from peers**.
* 💭 The importance of **conviction and being judged for one's actions** is highlighted, with the understanding that **judgment is inevitable** regardless of one's choices.
* 🏆 Mark emphasizes the value of being judged for things one finds **important and worthy**, rather than trying to **avoid judgment altogether**.
* 🔮 The discussion touches on the **difficulty of finding clarity and conviction**, especially in making **non-traditional choices** that may be met with **skepticism**.
* 🌐 The conversation concludes with the acknowledgment that following a less conventional path can be **isolating but also rewarding in terms of personal significance**.

### The Paradox of Being Liked: Embracing Polarization for Success and Happiness
* 🤝 Most people's desire to be liked by everyone can hinder their success and happiness, as **true attraction is polarizing**.
* 🎭 "The more a thing is loved by one group, the more it's generally **hated by another**."
* 🧠 It's crucial to find something you're willing to be judged for, a concept explored in the quote "**If you wanna be a powerful, life-changing force for some people, you have to be willing to be a joke and embarrassment to everybody else**".
* 📚 The self-help industry often perpetuates the idea that "**your emotions are wise and true**," creating a sense of **entitlement and spiritual narcissism**.
* 🌍 "To not give a fuck about adversity, you must first give a fuck about **something more important than adversity**."
* 🏞 The importance of finding a **purpose or value worth suffering for**, as many people struggle to identify what they truly care about.
* 🍔 The difficulty of breaking away from societal norms and expectations, with the example of fast food choices highlighting how **environment influences lifestyle habits**.
* 🧘 The need to balance listening to emotions with not letting them rule your life, as "**our emotions sometimes tell the truth, but our emotions also are liars sometimes**".

- So funny thing, I was just in Budapest, and they lost a third of their territory after World War I, and they're still upset about it a hundred years later. Even people our age, and they call it a National Trauma, like they use the word trauma. And it's like, if you stop a random person in Hungary on the street, and you mentioned the Trianon Pact, they understand it as a trauma. It like raises this interesting question of like, can a nation experience trauma? I mean, I know we're like, we're in this era now where everything is trauma, and there's like repressed trauma and intergenerational trauma and cultural trauma and people trauma, ethnic trauma. Can there be a national trauma, Drew? And why is that a trauma, and why isn't like, I don't know, like you don't hear, like, we don't talk, in the US we don't talk about Civil War as like a trauma.

- Not anymore. - Yeah, maybe, I don't know. - Has it been long enough, I don't know. So Budapest itself, you mean Hungary, lost territory during World War I. - [Mark] Hungary lost over a third of its territory during World War I and two thirds of its population. - Oh, okay. - And like 80% of its natural resources. - That is pretty traumatic for a small country, I would say. - Yeah, right? So the reason I bring this up, yeah. (laughs) - Where are you going with this, please? I was just in Europe. - Okay. - We just did two YouTube videos. We shot one in Hungary and we shot one in Portugal. The one in Hungary is, Hungary has the most alcoholics in the world per capita. - Okay, yeah. - 22% of the adult population is clinically diagnosable as an alcoholic in Hungary.

We did a YouTube video there investigating that. Like what are the historical reasons and cultural reasons. And then we went to Portugal, Portugal is actually technically the most anxious country in the world. Has the highest diagnoses of generalized anxiety disorder in the world and has for like 30 or 40 years. - That kind of surprises me, I don't know. I've been to Portugal, it's a lovely country. - Surprised me too. When you think of Portugal, you associate it with like clean beaches. And like sipping a cappuccino on a beautiful cafe on a sunny day and like yeah, Portuguese are like all worked up. - I didn't, I saw very few, like homeless people in poverty. I didn't see a whole lot of that, maybe that was just, I was in the tourist areas or whatever. I don't know, but that surprises me. - It was interesting doing both of these.

So for listeners, both of these videos will be, they're gonna be like mini documentaries that are gonna be posted on the YouTube channel. Hungary was like, I kind of went into it. I'd read about their history. Obviously, they were like controlled by the Soviet Union for 50, 60 years. That clearly is gonna fuck you up pretty well. So like Hungary, I was like, I kind of had a sense of like what was going on. Portugal, it was a complete surprise. I kind of went in with a few hypotheses. You know, it's the poorest country in Western Europe. A lot of unemployment, cost of living issues, a lot of brain drain. But there's definitely a plot twist there. It was one of those situations where it was like once I was on the ground there talking to psychiatrists and psychologists, learning from the local people that a different conclusion came up. - Any clues to that, or are you gonna keep close to your chest?

- No, it's gonna leave a cliffhanger. It's not what you would expect. It's not what you, I think it's the most obvious thing that people would look at is some sort of economic issue, but Portugal's a curveball. But it was fun. You know, got to meet up with some listeners and readers while I was out there. You know, I guess just like trying to help Portuguese give fewer fucks. And came back last week. Saw you had on the docket an episode about not giving a fuck. I'm gonna be honest, I like didn't even look at this outline. (laughs) I guess you could say I didn't give a fuck about this episode, but in my defense, in my defense, I've done approximately 18,000 interviews about not giving a fuck. (laughs) - That's true, I think you've prepared for this one. You literally wrote the book on this one too.

- Yes, yes. - But the name of the podcast is The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. And we haven't done an episode. - It is true. - In nearly eight or nine months. - It is true. Well, I'm hoping that we touch on some new angles. Let me say this, we're not just gonna rehash the book. - Right. - We're gonna bring some fresh takes and some new angles to how to approach not giving a fuck. And so I guess this is more like the keys to not giving a fuck, or tools that can help you give fewer fucks and take it easier in life. - A little bit of how to, yeah. - Yes, more of a how to and less philosophical. - Great, great, okay, well, yeah. So I gathered like a bunch from like things you posted on social media or conversations we've had, or little things from the book too that I'd like to you to expand on, so.

- [Mark] Okay.  
- Yeah. If we want to, we can just jump right into this. - Let's do it. - All right.  
- I feel like the kid who's like showed up to the exam without studying, so I'm like, but I'm confident. - I think you'll be all right. You're the professor at this point. - Okay, okay.  
- I don't know if you're the student. So let's jump right in. So this first one I found, If you wouldn't ask them for advice, then their criticism. - Oh, hell yeah. So this is funny because it's, you know, over the years I've talked to so many people, like if I was to like informally create a spreadsheet of all the things that people complain that they give too many fucks about over the years, obviously what other people think is probably number one, it's like top of that list.

It's just almost everybody who comes to me with a I'm giving too many fucks problem. It is some permutation of I care way too much what this person thinks or that person thinks, or what this group of people's gonna think. And I just find it, over the years, I couldn't help but notice a pattern in that it's like we tend to, strangely, we disproportionately care what people we don't respect think versus the people that we love and respect. Like my wife and I, we joke all the time, and I think a lot of married couples will relate to this, and that like she and I will give each other advice, and we're like, Eh, what do you know? But then it's well like, you know, like a month later she'll be like listening to a podcast or watching a documentary, and it's like some professor at Harvard gives her the exact same, says the exact same thing that I said,

and then she's like, oh my God, that's so true. I can't believe I never thought of that before. And I'm like, what the fuck? I was telling you this a month ago. There's some weird thing where it's like, the closer people are to us and the more intimacy that we feel with them, we like, somehow we like take them for granted. Maybe it's because we feel so secure in the relationship. It doesn't eat at us this like need to earn their approval or avoid their judgment or, you know, be right all the time. But it's like the people who we kind of think are dicks and who kind of treat us poorly, that we feel this like constant need to impress them or win their approval over. And so it's this weird paradoxical thing that I think just is a natural component of human psychology that we disproportionately get obsessed with. Like earning the approval of people

that don't really deserve our time and attention. And so I really like that line. I feel like it just crystallizes the kind of the absurdity of the situation. Like, if you wouldn't ask them for advice, then why the fuck do you care about their criticism? I dunno, have you ever experienced that? - Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think there might be a little bit of negativity bias that creeps in there. Like because people you don't know as well, or even don't respect as much, are much more likely to come at you with like a negative criticism or something like that, right. So our brains are just wired for that negativity bias to put more weight onto that. - Yeah. - I think that's part of it. I don't know. Whereas, you know, somebody who's closer to you is gonna at least soften the blow a little bit or, I don't know. - Yeah, or maybe there's confidence of like,

even if they disagree with the thing that you're doing, they still love you and care about you. I don't know, it's funny 'cause there's like, there's a person in my life right now who understands nothing about my life or my profession or my job, and this person has like said some things to me recently that like really grinded my gears, and it's like, it's been eating at me for months. And it's so funny 'cause I'm like, it's the one person in my life who like arguably understands the least about what I'm doing, whose comments that I'm like the most upset about. (both chuckles) Like, it's their comment that I'm thinking about three months later. And I'm like, I'm gonna prove them. Like maybe if I do this, then they'll understand, right. Maybe the motivation is less about the approval and just like this desire to be understood,

at least this is how I experience it most often. It's like, I feel like the people who criticize me, it's like if they just understood what I understood, then they wouldn't feel that way. - Yes. Okay. - Then they'd be a little bit more compassionate, or their criticism would be more constructive, or they'd be more helpful. But just realistically, you're never gonna make everybody understand what you understand. Like, that's just part of life, is that a significant proportion of people are just never gonna understand. - Well, okay, so but this person in your life. Do they have, have they put themselves out there, or is this just kind of a random person, or have they actually done something where it's like their criticism actually does count in a way? Because there's that whole like Teddy Roosevelt, man in the arena. He gave that whole speech, like basically saying, don't give a fuck about what anybody says,

especially if they're not putting their ass on the line. - [Mark] Yeah. - Is this person at least worthy of a few fucks given or not? - So this person has done really notable things and is like and is an impressive person. It's just that they have done it in a different arena. - Ah, okay. Gotcha. - And I think maybe what grates on me is that they like, I feel their judgment when I don't think they understand what arena I'm in. - That I can identify with. If it's somebody who hasn't put their ass on the line, then I'm just like, well whatever. I don't care. - Yeah, well, another example, so basically like the first 10 years of my career, my parents, two of my parents, two of my three parents were very critical of my career choices. and did not hide that. - Yeah. - And I, in my opinion,

they were very condescending about it and diminished to things that I was doing. And at the time, it drove me fucking crazy. And it was actually very motivating 'cause it was like, I'm gonna show them like, well if I do this, then now I'll show them. And like, I got caught in that cycle of trying to win approval, which is kind of a double-edged sword. It can motivate a lot of action, but it's like motivated by a bad intention. So it just ends up making you feel worse. But it's funny 'cause it's like now that that's not an issue, I look back in that time and like, this is classic shit. This is like classic stuff like my stepmom being like, why don't you put on a suit and go get a real job? Like, because she just didn't know what a blog was. That's really what it boiled down to is like,

she didn't understand what blogging was in 2012 and how you could sell a course online. Like, completely understandable why she would be critical because she didn't understand what I was doing. And, but at the time it just like it fucking ate at me. Like, it would really spin me up and trigger me and, you know, bring out all sorts of expletives over Thanksgiving dinner. - But, and yeah. (Mark laughing) I get it though. I think it's just, there are a lot, especially with people now, you know, you have a platform to stand on and shout and people are gonna react to that. But it's just like, who are you listening to? Who are you letting into that space where it's gonna be like, I actually do give a fuck about this. And that's a really hard thing. Again, going back to the negativity bias. What's gonna weigh the most on you is gonna be kind

of just the negative, shitty things that people say and do. - Yeah. - I don't know. - Yeah. It's funny. I mean, this is one of those questions that I don't have an answer to. Like, it never goes away. You just get better at dealing with it. - Yeah, for sure. - Because it's like, now it's like this person in my life now. It's funny 'cause it's like I see the game that my brain is playing. Like, I think 10 years ago, I get all wrapped up into it and start like obsessing. Now it's just kinda like, oh yeah, like the things this person said are like eating at me. And so now I just kind of like try to channel that productively, like, use that as motivation. Not like a I'm gonna show him, but like, just to like, okay, yeah, I'm a little pissed, so let's go do something with that.

So I think I've matured in the sense that I'm much more conscious and aware of that dynamic as it goes on, but that dynamic has not gone away. - Right. - Despite all of my success and experience and writing and studying and researching, I'm still a fucking monkey with like, wanting to let you know, well, yeah, win the banana. - It's not going away. Which is highly, highly related to this next one I had down, which is People will judge you for whatever you do. People will judge you for whatever you don't do. So fuck the people and do the thing. - [Mark] Right. - [Drew] It's not going away. - Right. Wait, so this is, yeah, this is another interesting way to look at this is that again, this fear of judgment. If you do something well, there's gonna be a judgment if you don't do it as well. Like, there's a judgment no matter what you do or don't do.

So, like, judgment is just, like, I think the trap that people fall into is they assume that judgment is something that you can avoid. Like, there's a world where you are not judged by anybody ever for anything, that you find the perfect people who love you perfectly and always agree with everything you do. Like, that world does not exist. That's a fantasy land. So, judgment is a permanent state of your existence. Whether you are being actively exposed to that judgment or not makes little difference. So, you might as well be judged for the things that you find important and worthy. And this ties back into one of, you know, one of the main points of Subtle Art or in the first chapter of Subtle Art is that, like, the key to not giving a fuck about adversity is giving a fuck about something more important than adversity. And I think this is ultimately, like, what holds so many people back in this area is that they get so caught up

on just not experiencing the judgment that they don't think about like, what's worth being judged for? What are the things in my life that I don't care how many people judge me for it, I'm still gonna do it because it's that important to me, 'cause I care that much about it. I think that's actually the question that people should be asking. - Right and I don't think, like this happened for me actually when I came to work for you. I've told you this story before, but you know, I was in this middle of this PhD program, there's a very set path to go. Then you came along and ruined my life. - And continue to ruin it today. - Continue to ruin it to this day. No, but there were, I mean there were a number of people around me who basically thought that, hey, you're ruining your life here. What are you doing? Because again, this was 2014.

- Yeah.  
- What the hell's a blog? And how do you make any money with it? And how's this guy gonna pay you? There were a lot of people, you know, the head of the graduate study, she sat me down and was like, are you okay? What's going on? What happened to you? And to me though, it was just so I was like, yes. That this was so self-evident to me that no, this was the right thing to do. So I think you're right. I think you have to figure out or be in the right space to where you do know exactly what you give a fuck about. - Right.  
- In this situation to be able to be like, I don't care what you think. I just didn't care. - It's also realizing, like I bet a lot of those people who tried to talk to you. It's funny 'cause my wife went through the same thing.

Like when my wife decided to leave Brazil and start traveling, like a bunch of her friends sat her down. They're like, 'cause she quit her job. Quit her career, all this stuff. So like a bunch of her friends sat her down. They're like, where are you going with this American guy? Like, how does he make money? Like, what's a blog? But it's interesting because I think a lot of those people in those situations, their judgment is actually more about them than it's about you. - 100%, 100%. - Right because it's like they're struggling with the PhD program. They are heavily invested mentally and emotionally into it, but also maybe have some doubts, maybe are second guessing themselves, maybe wishing for certain things, certain sacrifices in their life weren't being made. And then they see you just picking up and leaving and like, that's scary because it's like, well, if he can do it, what's stopping me?

- Right. - Like what's keeping me here? And it forces them to ask difficult questions about themselves. - That's com the a 100% what I saw, I think yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - There were, it was funny though, because there were several people, it was like my parents, they were like, yeah, go for it. - Yeah. - That's cool, so, which they've always been like that. So I'm very lucky in that regard. But the peer pressure around it was palpable, but yet at the end of the day, I was just like, I knew, I just knew whatever it was. So I don't know, is there a way to get to that? Do you think there's a way to get to that space or? To me it just, I didn't even have to think about it. - Right. - At that time. And so, I don't know.

I think that's maybe a harder, where it's hard to find that kind of clarity I think for a lot of people. - Yeah, I mean, I think what you're talking about is conviction. - Yeah. - And conviction's a hard thing to find. But it's, I mean, from what I've found true in my life is like, like there's this great Peter Thiel question where he says like, every founder, CEO that he talks to that like, comes to him for an investment. Like the first question he asked him, he says like, what do you believe is true about the world that most people don't? And I love that question so much because I think as a creative person, just as a writer, I find that that generally leads me to the most interesting topics and the most important topics. But on a personal level, I feel like that's where conviction comes from because it's easy to believe in things

that everybody else believes in. Like everybody believes a PhD program's valuable, right? So it's easy to believe that. And the fact that you believe it doesn't carry any weight or significance with it. It's very difficult to think that a PhD program maybe doesn't have a lot of value to it. And like to do that, you have to search for evidence and principles on your own and do the reasoning on your own and become convinced of the reasoning on your own. And I guess that process of like doing it on your own rather than relying on the opinions of others, it is more difficult, but it generates more conviction once it's done successfully. - I gotcha. Yeah. - And like, what I've found in my career is that I will often investigate things that are very contrarian and like, you know, everybody believes the opposite. Let me look at this thing. And nine times outta 10, there's nothing there.

It's like, okay, well, everybody believes the opposite for a good reason. But that one time out of 10, you actually do like, okay, the crowd's missing something here. And if you can like, generate enough evidence there, like it becomes a very powerful thing. - I had several years to stop and think about it. So it wasn't like this was just, it fell upon me and I was highly convicted. It took a while, but I got to that point, yeah. - I went through a thing to a lesser extent when I started my online businesses 'cause all my university friends went into the corporate world. And it was funny because I mean, it wasn't as explicit. Like, nobody like pulled me aside and was like, what the fuck are you doing? But I noticed it's like I kind of stopped getting invited to things. You know, it was like conversations and like, I started getting left outta conversations.

or like certain questions that people would ask each other, they stopped asking me, you know, so yeah. You like, it tests you for sure. But it's like, I think this is important. Like this comes back to that first point of like, what are you willing to be judged for? I think when you find something that you have high conviction in that is maybe not a popular path or a popular belief, the fact that you get judged for it, like, that testing of it I think is actually important and makes it feel more meaningful. Like, I take a lot of pride in the things that I've done because people thought I was kind of crazy when I started. Like, that's actually what makes it feel more meaningful and powerful on the other side of it. Whereas I feel, again, I feel like if you're just always following what everybody else says and thinks and does, you're not gonna have that feeling of purpose.

and reward at the end, or not to the same extent. - Definitely. Yeah, a hundred percent. I use it as a badge of honor too. It's like, yeah, I'm not, but I think I've always kind of been like that too. And even when I was younger, I was like, I'm not gonna be like everybody else around me. - Right? - Yeah. - Yeah, I guess but there is a cost to that, right? So it's like. - Oh yeah. - You get to feel a little bit more significance and meaning when you know when things turn out well. But when things don't turn out well, you look like an idiot. And also, it's isolating, right? So it's like when you're on the same path with a bunch of other people, you have the added benefit of like a sense of community. You're in a thing together, or there are other people who understand

what you're going through. When you choose the thing that most people aren't doing, there's a certain amount of isolation that goes with that. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Quick check-in. How is your brain doing today? Is it like a serene spa or a fucking dumpster fire surrounded by sirens? Look, we all know life can get chaotic, especially when we're juggling a million things at once. Work, bills, family, friends, your health, it really is like a carnival at times. But for me, a therapist was like a personal tour guide helping me through the chaos. He helped me find more balance and clarity in my life, and I learned a lot of great coping skills that I still use to this day. He helped me set healthy boundaries, and he helped me get through some difficult relationships. So if you're considering therapy and live somewhere where there isn't one easily available, why not give Better Help a shot?

It's completely online, making it super convenient and flexible, and you just fill out a short questionnaire, and they'll match you with a licensed therapist. And if it's not a perfect fit, you can switch at any time without any extra costs. So put out some psychological fires with Better Help. Visit BetterHelp.com/IDGAF today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.com/IDGAF. - Well, this is the next one, which is To be liked by all, is to be loved by none. And I think that's what we're starting to get at, right? - This reminds me of like, I had this concept in Models, my dating book, about polarization. - So in the context of dating, like one of the points I made in that book is that attraction is polarizing so that like anything that's attractive is polarizing. So like you can't,

if you're middle of the road in every way in life, like there's nothing attractive about you. Like the things that make an individual attractive to some people will make them unattractive to others. And so you actually want to paradoxically like lean into those polarizing things about you, which tend to be like very identity and personality based. And they will immediately turn off a large percentage of people, but they will also turn on a lot large percentage of people. And I think this is just true in life in general. It's definitely true in business. Like the company that tries to make a product that everybody will like, usually ends up making a product nobody likes. Like, it's just this blah generic commodity. Like the only things that everybody likes are commodities. You know, anything that is unique, distinct, adds a significant amount of value to like one group of people is probably pissing off another group in some way or form.

And actually, those two things are generally proportional. Like, the more a thing is loved by one group, the more it's generally hated by another. And I think, you know, again, this comes back to people not wanting to be disliked, people not wanting to be judged, people not wanting to be hated. Like, they don't understand that as you protect yourself from the negative social reactions, you are limiting your positive social reactions. As you limit your negative feelings on the things that you're doing, you are also putting a ceiling on the positive things that you can do. So, it's like, and again, finding that important thing in the world that you're willing to be judged for. It's like, what's the thing you're willing to be hated for? What's the thing that it's like, you know is right, and if people don't understand it, you're still willing to do it. And it's hard to find that thing. And most of us, like, rarely have

many of those things in our lives, but when you have it, like it's super, super important, and you really need to go all in on it. - Yeah, and you've said you have a really good quote around this that you've used for a long time, which is, If you wanna be a powerful, life-changing force for some people, you have to be willing to be a joke and embarrassment to everybody else. - Yeah, I think the line is, It's impossible to be a life-changing presence to some people without being a joke and embarrassment to others. - Right. Right. - Which is totally true. - [Drew] Right, yeah. - Which basically sums up my career in a nutshell. (laughs) - I was gonna say, yeah, you start out in men's dating advice, which some people would look at and they'd be like, Oh my God, that is so cringe, right? But I mean, you're actually helping

a lot of people in that regard. And then the self-help world in general. - It still goes on today. I saw, I forget where I saw it, I saw a comment somewhere, somewhere on social media, and it was like, some guy was like trashing me and he called me a pseudo philosopher. I love that. I was like, yeah, I kind of am a pseudo, like, I actually thought about putting that in my Twitter bio. It's like author, bestselling author, entrepreneur, pseudo philosopher. But it's funny because it's like, that's actually a perfect example because like that guy was trashing me for the exact reason that people love me. - Yeah, yeah. - Which is like, I don't come up with any of this stuff. It's like all this stuff with like the Greeks and Romans and... - Buddhists. - Buddhists and Enlightenment philosophers, they all came up with this stuff.

It's just that like I'm repackaging it and simplifying it so that like people sitting in their car can understand it and apply it to their lives. That's not philosophy. That is pseudo philosophy. That's like plain philosopher when you're not. And I take a lot of pride in that. I think it's like, it's actually a hugely valuable service for the world. And I have no illusions that I'm like actually practicing philosophy. So yeah, that's a perfect example of like the thing that I get trashed for. I'm like, yeah, actually that's, he's kind of bang on. But I think it's a good thing. - It goes back to your values too. I think it was, I know it was Oliver Berkman and one of his, I think it was in the anecdote, he said something along the lines of, you know, he understood that, he was a journalist and wadded

into the whole self-help realm, right? And he said, well, I know that there's kind of a cringe reaction to the whole self-help, even the word self-help. He said, God forbid anyone want to help themselves, right? Like, when you put it that way, well, like, what's so bad about it anyway? And if you think that that's a bad thing, well, I don't even give a shit about your opinion. It goes back to the, you know. - Dude self-help is kind of like porn in that nobody respects it, but everybody uses it. (both laughing) Like if you look at the bestselling books of all time, it's like, seven out of the 10 are self-help books. It's absurd. I mean, it's a multi, multi-billion dollar industry. I generally find that sentiment mostly around to bring it back to academia around academics, journalists. - Yes. - Very highly educated people.

- Yes.
- Which I find ironic because it's actually very highly educated people who are like the highest consumers of self-help material, and they're also the ones who go to therapy. So like it's, you know, okay, yeah, you have all these degrees, but you're still sad and anxious and depressed and like, spending hundreds of dollars on therapists and coaches. So like, you know, okay, trash self-help if you want, but you're kind of the target demographic. - Yeah well, okay, here's another way then related to that as well. Statistically speaking, a normal person is physically unhealthy, emotionally anxious and depressed, socially lonely and financially in debt. So fuck being normal. Just to kind of back this up with some numbers too. So the, I still, I'm just shocked by this every time. I look up the updated numbers, overweight obesity rates in the United States

is nearing 75% at this point. I remember back in like the late 2000s, early 2010s, it was like 60%. It's almost 75% now for overweight and obesity in the United States. It's insane. 80% of Americans have some form of consumer debt, an average of $38,000 in debt, not including mortgages. That's not including home mortgages or anything like that. So yeah, people are unhealthy. They're in debt, socially lonely. - Yeah, loneliness is at like 60-70%. - So why do we wanna fit in so badly if that's the case, right? - I love this idea because there's two types of normal. There's like the cultural narrative of normal, and then there's the actual normal, the statistical reality of normal. And what most people worry about not fitting into is the cultural narrative of normal. The cultural narrative of normal is completely skewed.

It's like, it's a Hollywood version of normal. - Right. - And it's invented and made up in people's minds. And it's probably a bunch of marketers and admin invented it to sell dish detergent and fucking haircare products. Like, it's like our idea of normal is just completely off. It's so funny because this whole conversation of like not giving a fuck and not like, how can I give fewer fucks? How can I be less anxious? How can I worry less about what people are thinking about me? It's funny because all these things that we're talking about, these are not theoretical, these are not abstract theories. These are not like theoretical thought experiments. Like it's simply just recognizing reality. It's like really basic pieces of reality that for whatever reason we tend to miss or forget about. You know, like you'll be judged for everything. Like that's just a simple reality of being human.

Yet we somehow like dilute ourselves and forget about that because it's unpleasant to remember. Same thing with the normal thing like that normalcy is actually generally unhealthy. Not really like, there's not a whole lot of success financially or, you know, relationally. Yet the image that people compare themselves to is probably in like the top 10% of like actual human outcomes in the world. So again, it's just a reality check. It's another one of these like slaps in the face of like, you know, wake up. Like this is not, the thing that you've constructed in your mind is not real. Like the fears and the narratives around the fears that you've been living off of were just made up. Like reality's actually way more sobering. This is a bit of a tangent, but again. - I love tangents. - I'm always shocked by these, what, why?

Like we knew back in the 2000s and 2010s, like, obesity is a problem. Debt's a problem. And there's all these basically PSAs going out or people writing about it or books written, government initiatives. And yet it continues to get worse. Why? - Bro, have you been to Taco Bell lately? - I have not, no. - Have you tried the new - I have not. - The new Choco Tacos. I mean it... (laughs) Or Shake Shack, I mean. - No, I have not. - Dude, Shake Shack is a religious experience. - Yeah, yeah? - Yeah, it's... - I don't think I've ever been to a Shake Shack, actually. - Oh, it's so good. Everybody in California loves In and Out. - Ugh, overrated. - So overrated. - That's gonna get us canceled now. (both laughing)

- Yeah, In and Out is just like the most overhyped piece of mediocrity in the fast food industry. - It's not good. - I mean, this comes back to like, Derek Sivers has this great quote. He said, If all it took was information, we would all be millionaires with six packs. We don't act on information, - Right. - We act on emotion. And most lifestyle habits are driven by impulse and emotion. And it takes a lot of work and a lot of effort to either fight against those impulses or emotions or retrain those impulses and emotions to do the things that are healthy for us. And so it's like food is just a very, you know, we talked about this on the Health Journey podcast. Like, it's food is such an instinctual, unconscious relationship in our life. Like, it's such a primal thing, and our instincts around it are so fucking powerful.

And so, I mean, like, as somebody who was obese just as recently as a few years ago, like, dude, I knew all the data. I knew everything about processed carbs and sugars and alcohol. Like, I could've told you all of the information as we drove to Shake Shack and I ordered a double double smoke shack with two orders of fries. Oh, it's so fucking tasty, dude. It's so tasty. - That just, that sounds painful to me now. Like, that it just, I don't know. I don't know. But it does get into like this, we're talking about this whole being normal thing. You do feel this pull back into that like, no, come join us. Come back to our side, be normal. I've noticed that too, just around like health stuff. Luckily, my friends, like when I stopped drinking, none of them were like, oh, come on, just have a drink.

But I know a lot of people who do get that. - Yeah. - Or a lot of people who, you know, I'll sit down and I'm like, you know, no, I don't want whatever terrible food that's here. I'll just have the salad or whatever. And sometimes I get some shit for that. Like, oh, come on, just live a little. There's that pull. You know what I mean? There's that pull. - It's like the PhD thing, right? It's like, you know, I'm completely all in on my unhealthy decision. How dare you have willpower in the face of right glorious temptation. Like 'cause then it calls in the question my willpower and my ability as a human to make good decisions. I do think this is also an area where environment plays a very big role. - Huge. - I mean, again, huge just got back from Europe like impossible to ignore

that Europeans are significantly healthier on the food front than North Americans are. And it's just the food there; it's higher quality. They have a culture and history around food. They've got all sorts of regulations around processing and chemicals and preservatives and shit that you can't put in the food. And it makes a big difference. And it, you know, you don't see fast food everywhere there like you do here. They're not in their cars all the time like we are here. So it's, I do think when it comes to lifestyle choices, so many of them ultimately resort to the path of least resistance. And so if the path of least resistance in your environment is Shake Shack or McDonald's, then that's probably what's gonna get eaten most of the time. - Yeah, and just an argument for being very, very conscious of who you surround yourself with and the culture. - That too, that too.

- That you steep yourself into. - The people that you spend time with for sure. This episode is sponsored by Momentous. You might think you're getting all the nutrients you need from your diet, but you're fucking wrong. Okay, yeah, that was a little aggressive, but that's why I've added Momentous creatine, omega-3s, and protein to my daily regimen. Let's be honest, most supplements kind of suck, but I like Momentous because they focus not only on what works, but they use the highest quality pure ingredients. Momentous adheres to rigorous third-party testing standards, meeting the demands of top sports organizations like the NFL and NBA to ensure that their products are pure and precisely what they claim to be. There's a reason why the world's best athletes and experts use and help develop Momentous products. So if you're looking for premium supplements that are trusted by the best athletes in the world,

head over to LiveMomentous.com and use the promo code IDGAF to get 20% off your first one-time purchase. That's LiveMomentous.com and use the code IDGAF, as in I don't give a fuck, for 20% off your one-time purchase. - Well, okay, this next one Your vanity tells you the world is going to love you. Your anxiety tells you the world is going to laugh at you. Both are lies. - Yeah, I'm like really enjoying this idea right now that our emotions sometimes tell the truth, but our emotions also are liars sometimes. And I think this is another example of just reality solving a little bit of the mess that we experience, you know, 'cause I think we all have this idealistic belief that our emotions are always true and we should just listen to our hearts and just go with our feelings and go with your gut. I personally think that's the monkey brain talking.

The monkey brain doesn't wanna stop and think about, you know, whether the French fries are good for it or not. You know, the monkey brain doesn't want to ask itself whether, you know, people are actually going to like you or not. It just wants to do the thing and believe whatever it wants to believe. And look, in some cases, our emotions are really good, accurate feedback mechanisms for things going on in the world, but sometimes they're completely full of shit. Sometimes they are, I mean, they're always irrational, but sometimes that irrationality causes us to be afraid of something that doesn't exist. To be excited about something that's not gonna happen. To be worried about something that is completely imagined. To be motivated by something that's actually very unhealthy. To fall in love with somebody who actually doesn't treat us well. Right, our emotions lead us astray just as often as they put us onto the right path.

And so the kind of this blind adherence to our emotions and our impulses and our gut, like I just, and this comes into probably my biggest criticism of the self-help industry because so much of the self-help industry is I think taking people who are probably emotionally suppressed and teaching them that emotions are everything and they should listen to their emotions all the time. And it's like solving one problem by creating another. - Yes. - And what actually, it's like you should stop suppressing your emotions, but you also don't need to listen to them all the time. You also should remember that your emotion is like a dog that poops on the carpet and cries when it doesn't get the treat it wants. And you can still love it and you can still listen to it, you know, the same way you love your dog and listen to your dog even when it shits on the carpet. You should love your emotions and listen to your emotions,

but don't let them rule your life. - This also gets to the whole notion of entitlement that you get into. - Yeah. - And the books and other places that you've written. Where, you know, it's a very entitled thing to think, oh, I'm so special, the world owes me something. Or oh, I'm so awful, the world owes me something. - Right. - This is getting into that a little bit too, right? - Yes, for sure. - And that is, like you said, the self-help industry will often kind of play into that. - Absolutely. - And be like look at how entitled you are. The world has screwed you over. - Yeah. - It's time to get yours now, right? - [Mark] Absolutely. - The world doesn't give a fuck. - You know why? Because that sells $5,000 seminars. - [Drew] Yeah, yeah.

- And telling people like the world doesn't owe you shit. Your emotions don't necessarily mean anything. You should grow up and like mature to the point that you don't have to like cave to every impulse or emotion that you feel that doesn't sell $5,000 seminars, so. - You might get a $20 book say outta of that, you might. - Yeah, you know, you might sell a book and you might get a free podcast lesson, but, you know, $5,000 nobody's signing up for that seminar. So no, people want to hear like, you know, you're owed happiness. You deserve to be happy all the time. You deserve your emotions are wise and true, and it's the universe telling you that you're special and just, you know, sign up for this course and spend hundreds of dollars and bring your friends and I'll teach you the meditation that will put you in touch with the universe.

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It is spiritual narcissism. Like this is what spiritual narcissism is, and a lot of this industry trains people in it and gets paid a lot to do so. And I think they do because spiritual narcissism is an improvement over abject depression. Like if you take somebody who's so depressed that they can barely get outta bed or so anxious that they're like repeatedly having panic attacks, and you train them to be a spiritual narcissist, that is an improvement, but it's not the end of the road. Like there's still an unhealthy person, and there is something to it, but it's incomplete. - [Drew] Yeah. - By the way, it is a verifiable fact that spiritual narcissists prefer In and Out burger over Shake Shack. - Okay, we just lost a whole bunch of people. Great. (Mark laughing) Well, okay. I think this last one,

you've already actually mentioned it, but it ties it all together pretty well. To not give a fuck about adversity, you must first give a fuck about something more important than adversity. This was in the books, this was in the articles you've written. - Yeah, yeah. It comes back to that to like, what's worth suffering for, what's worth being judged for. And if you can't answer that easily, then that's the problem. The judgment's not the problem. The adversity is not the problem. The fact that you can't answer that is the problem. - Well, and I think a lot of people will also, they don't know what to give a fuck about. They don't know what the adversity they're willing to endure. So what they've done all their lives is just look at what everyone else has done. We've kind of already mentioned this. - Yeah. - And follow that path. And so you get, you do that for a few years,

a few decades, and that like, yeah. You don't know what you're gonna- - Really don't. - You don't know what you would sacrifice anything for. You don't know what you would endure any amount of pain for over a longer period of time. And so yeah, they kind of all tie together like that. And I don't know, I think there's just, there's a lot of people I think, who are just kind of like accepting what's around them as what to do and what to give a fuck about without it ever thinking about, it goes back to the whole how do you feel about this emotional thing. - Yeah. Cool. I guess we're done. - I think so. - Okay. Yeah, we still don't have an outro. (laughs) Say goodbye. - We'll figure that out. - Say goodbye, Drew. - Goodbye Drew. (Mark laughs) (upbeat music)

6 Ways to Stop Giving a F*ck

The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck Podcast

Hungary lost a significant portion of its territory and population after World War I, leading to a lasting sense of trauma that is still felt today.

The country has the highest rate of alcoholism in the world, while Portugal, despite its picturesque image, has the highest diagnoses of generalized anxiety disorder.

The speaker's recent trips to Hungary and Portugal for YouTube documentaries revealed unexpected cultural and historical factors contributing to these issues.

People often care more about the opinions of those they don't respect than those they love and respect.

This paradoxical behavior is driven by a desire for approval and understanding from those who criticize us.

The struggle for validation can be motivating but often leads to negative feelings and a cycle of trying to prove oneself.

The speaker reflects on their past struggles with judgment and criticism, particularly regarding their unconventional career path.

They emphasize that judgment is a permanent aspect of life and cannot be avoided, urging others to focus on what truly matters to them.

The conversation highlights the idea that others' judgments often stem from their own struggles and insecurities, making it important to stay true to one's own goals and values.

Finding Conviction and Purpose in Life Choices

Conviction is challenging to find, but it often comes from questioning popular beliefs and seeking evidence on your own.

Choosing a less popular path can lead to isolation and judgment, but it also brings a sense of significance and meaning.

The journey to finding conviction may take time and can be tested by the reactions of others, but it ultimately leads to a more rewarding and purposeful life.

The Power of Polarization in Attraction and Success

Being liked by everyone often leads to being loved by none, as attraction is inherently polarizing.

Embracing unique and distinct qualities can turn off some people while attracting others, creating a balance between love and hate.

To make a significant impact, one must be willing to be judged and disliked for their beliefs and actions, as true value often comes from being a life-changing presence for some while being a joke to others.

Highly educated individuals are the biggest consumers of self-help material and therapy, despite their degrees.

The statistical reality of normalcy is concerning, with rising rates of obesity, debt, and loneliness in the U.

The cultural narrative of normal is skewed, leading people to compare themselves to unrealistic standards, while the true nature of reality often goes unnoticed.

The Struggle with Healthy Choices and Emotions

The speaker reflects on their past obesity and knowledge of unhealthy foods, noting the societal pressure to conform to normalcy.

They highlight the significant role of environment in lifestyle choices, contrasting the healthier food culture in Europe with North America.

The discussion also emphasizes the dual nature of emotions, acknowledging that while they can provide accurate feedback, they can also lead to irrational decisions and unhealthy behaviors.

The self-help industry often promotes blind adherence to emotions, potentially creating new problems for those who are emotionally suppressed.

It fosters a sense of entitlement, leading individuals to believe the world owes them something.

The key to overcoming adversity lies in finding something more important to care about, rather than simply following the paths of others.