So I wrote a book 10 years ago where I was trying to
figure out, as part of it, how do people get better at things? And so I spent time with a
professional guitar player and said, I just wanted
to see how he practiced. Like, what does this actually look like? And what I learned from them
is like, what they do is, yeah, they have the
music in front of them, but for them it's all speed. So they take a piece, like
he was working on licks for, he was a new acoustic style player, and he had these kind of
bluegrassy type licks, and he probably had it memorized, and he knew how fast he
could comfortably play it. For them, it's all about adding 20% to what they're comfortably doing, and then that push past
where they're comfortable. And the thing I remember
writing about him was, he was concentrating so hard.

to try to hit this lick 20%
faster than he was used to, it is he'd forget to breathe. So he'd be like going, going,
going, and then just gasp! You know, like, 'cause his body
would force him to breathe. So, yeah, there it seemed to be all about deliberate practice. So, like how do you... They don't waste any time. Professional musicians waste no time doing things they're comfortable doing. Every time they spend practicing, and this is also incredibly difficult, but every time they spend practicing, it's almost entirely in a state of, I'm not comfortable with this, but if I focus as hard as I can, maybe I'm going to pull this off. Like I'll pull off the sonata at this new speed I'm trying to do. Maybe I'll pull it off. It's like the maximal
growth stimulating state. And so I wrote in this chapter, Why was he so much better at guitar

than I was at the same age? 'Cause I played a lot of
guitar when I was younger and was in rock bands, right? And this kid was young, right?
But really, really good. And I said, Okay, now I realize it. I can recognize me when I look back at my time playing guitar at his age. I played stuff I knew how to play. Like, that's what was fun. Like, yeah, I want to like jam
along with the songs I knew or, you know, rip some pentatonic scales, to like a Jimi Hendrix album. It was fun. And he spent almost no time. The pro spent no time having fun. Practicing was your brain had to be, you know, uncomfortable. So I've learned a lot from that, you know? This actually led to a bit of
a battle, because my readers, there was this battle that
emerged where people were trying

to combine Anders Erickson and deliberate practice with Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and flow. And really, they were trying to make flow apply everywhere. Like, it's all about flow. Deliberate practice is flow, everything is flow. The whole thing is to get into a state of flow. And I remember Anders talking about this at some point and say like, No, no, no, like the state of practice that makes you better. It's the opposite of flow, right? In flow, you lose track of time. When you're practicing like that professional guitar player, you know every second that passes by because it's like incredibly difficult. Like, what you're doing, your mind is rebelling. It's not natural. You know, it's not fun. It's not the skier going down the hill, and it's all instinct. It's all you thinking about exactly what you're trying to do.

And so, you know, I began
to push this point out here. It's like, it's not all about flow. Like actually getting better at things is really painful sometimes. Deliberate practice is
not the same as flow. And there was a lot of fights
about this for a while. I think there was a lot of flow advocates that just wanted life
to be flow all the time. But I think Anders was right because I watched these
professionals practice, like that's what it is. It's not fun. Well, everything we know
about neuroplasticity, which of course is the
nervous system's ability to change in response to experience, says that there needs
to be some neurochemical or electrical condition that
changes in the nervous system in order to queue up plasticity. And to my knowledge, one
of the most robust of those is the release of the
so-called catecholamines: dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine.

Dopamine, because it's involved in so many things, can be a little bit of a distractor. So let's just say epinephrine, norepinephrine, adrenaline, noradrenaline create in the body and mind, to some extent, a state of alertness, and often a state of agitation. But if you think about it, in the absence of some neuromodulators like those that change the conditions for wiring of neurons, you know, everyone loves Fire together, wire together, a beautiful statement by Carla Shatz, not Donald Hebb. Dr. Carla Shatz said that, not Donald Hebb, but why would neurons need to change their patterns of connectivity if you can complete the operation? The nervous system needs to, it doesn't feel discomfort, it creates discomfort, but the nervous system needs a cue to like, Okay, this is different, I'm failing.

And it's the failures that
actually trigger the plasticity. It's the discomfort that cues that conditions are different now. Otherwise, there's simply no reason to devote energetic resources
to rewiring neurons. And I feel like we don't
learn this when we're kids. And I think as kids, we can learn so much without
that feeling of agitation. We get into these modes
of looking for flow. And I have respect for
the research on flow and the people who are involved in it, but I'd like to talk
about flow a little bit. The only thing I really
know about flow for sure is that backwards, it spells wolf. So, what of flow?
[Cal chuckling] It's such an attractive idea, right? It's like Star Wars. It's
like you have the force. [Andrew imitating buzzing] And you're doing things without thinking, and awesome, but I can't
flow myself through a paper and extract the critical data.

I can't create a podcast in flow. But when it's done, it feels great. Especially if you nail the key metrics. So, what do you think about flow? I'm not trying to beat up on it, I just want to understand how you place it in the framework of learning and deep work, if it belongs there at all. It doesn't have a big place in it, in the deep work framework. And this was what the controversy was for a while. And I knew Mihaly a little bit, like we corresponded some. And I knew Anders a little bit, like we corresponded some. So I sort of felt like I was, you know, and both of them actually tragically have died in the last three or four years, I think. Oh, that's very sad. Yeah, I think both recently. Flow doesn't play a big role in the deep work framework, right? So when I was trying to justify deep work,

So like, why focusing without distraction was important. I was drawing a lot more for Anders' work, right? Because why is focusing without distraction important? Well, you have to quiet the neural circuitry so you can isolate the circuit that's actually relevant to the thing that you're doing, right? You're not going to get better at something if you have noisy circuitry. And that requires really intense concentration. So it was one of the big advantages of deep work. If you're used to that cognitive state, you're going to learn things faster. And I think it was all Anders to understand why. So if you're not distracted, I'm really focusing hard on what I'm doing, trying to learn this new thing, you're giving the right mental conditions, but it's not a flow state. And I always used to say, Okay, when your deep work is not flow, because of this, like a lot of deep work.

is you're trying to do something that is beyond your comfort zone. And that's going to be difficult. That's a state of deliberate practice. And there's a famous paper about this where Anders actually explicitly says deliberate practice and flow are very different. And I wrote an essay years ago called The Father of Deliberate Practice Disowns Flow. And again, people are really flow partisans out there. It's interesting. I think people just like the idea 'cause it feels good, but I mean, flow is the feeling of performance, is the way I think about it. Like, it's really hard to train for certain sports, but then when you're actually performing, you're in the game, you can fall in the flow, right? Because then everything is I'm doing... And it's really hard to train guitar. But like, when you're performing in front of a big crowd, you probably, maybe you fall in the flow,

maybe you don't, but you could, right? But it's the performance state, not the practicing getting better state. So, you know, to me flow
has like very little role in how I think about what I do
as a cognitive professional. It's just not something
that comes up that often. I agree that we learn through focused work, and that flow does manifest
itself during performance. And sometimes so much so that
people exhibit virtuosity, so they're surprising themselves even. Like, What's in there? And that's kind of, I always think of, it's what is unskilled,
skilled mastery virtuosity. Virtuosity seems to incorporate
some sort random elements of maybe even the performer
has not done that before, and they surprise themselves,
or something like that. Yeah. Who knows? These are words for something that isn't easily quantified
in the first place. Thank you for tuning in to the Huberman Lab Clips channel.

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How to Practice, Build Skills & the Role of Flow State | Dr. Cal Newport & Dr. Andrew Huberman

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