RD: Rana, it's a great pleasure to meet you finally, in person, having read and greatly admired your work.

from having read your book, an early draft of your book, 'Women are not allowed to dream'.

Coming from Saudi Arabia, I have the impression that unless you are rich and male,

Saudi Arabia is not a very nice place to live. Is that a fair statement?

RA: As a woman, and also as an atheist, it is the worst place to live.

For women, we don't have any dreams there. We are constantly dependent on our family,

my father, my brother, my husband. I can't do anything in this country without their permission.

And even if my situation is really bad, if I am abused or have problems with my family,

I can't call the police or ask for help. RD: When you are not allowed to dream,

what dreams did you actually have? Did you dream of coming to a free country? RA: Yes, to live in a free country,

to have my own life, to be an atheist and not to pretend to be a Muslim,

while inside I am an atheist. To be respected. I don't want to believe in any religion or god.

I want to live in peace without being forced to be someone else, and to study nuclear physics, to meet you and...

RD: Is it right to say that you didn't really know that atheism existed,

that it was possible to be an atheist when you were growing up? RA: Yes, I was completely shocked.

When I saw the word 'atheist' in English, I looked it up on Google and translated it into Arabic.

And even in Arabic, what does 'mulahad' mean? Then I searched and was completely shocked.

There are people in our lives who don't believe in God or don't have any religion.

It was something so weird for me. RD: It was impossible to believe that anybody could not believe in God.

RA: Yes. And from that moment, I started to search. On Arabic Twitter, Facebook, or in the media,

if you search for 'atheist,' the first suggestion or book they recommend

is Richard Dawkins's *The God Delusion*. RD: And you read that in Arabic?

RA: I read it in Arabic. It's illegal to possess it, even to download it.

I had to use a VPN to get the book. When I got it, I downloaded it to my laptop,

then put it on my flash drive. I kept my flash drive like it was a drug or something really dangerous.

When I read it in my room, I closed the door, wedged something in front of it,

and opened my laptop and started reading, reading, reading. RD: What would have happened to you

if you had been caught reading it? RA: My family is very religious. They would not even...

Because the Arabic title, *The God Delusion*, if someone in my family saw it, I think I would be beaten,

they would take all my devices—laptop, phone, everything—and I would be isolated in the house.

I'm not allowed to go out or contact anyone until they are sure that I am Muslim and I don't have any other ideas.

RD: Do you still feel threatened, even living in Germany? RA: Yes. Threatened because I talk about

freedom of religion and I talk about women's rights. It's coming from people who are living here in Germany.

They are also refugees; they come from other countries. RD: So you are being threatened by fellow refugees

who have come from Islamic countries, and they come to a free country, Germany, and they still threaten you?

RA: Yes. Because I talk about this topic in Arabic, another language, and I really support women to also be free.

Not only because of the religion. RD: So these refugees in Germany who threaten you,

do they not realize they are now living in a free country? RA: I think they don't want to realize that.

They want to stay with the same ideas. RD: Why don't they go back home then?

RA: It's not my decision. I hope they will be really... [unclear] With this kind of people,

when I see people who threaten others, they are dangerous and they don't respect freedom.

They don't respect the rights here; why are they here? RD: Do your family know where you are?

RA: They know that I am in Germany, but they don't know which city. RD: So you keep that secret?

RA: Yes. I also block my information with the help of the police and the immigration office here.

Anyone who takes my name and tries to find where I live, can't. RD: What would happen to you

If they did find where you are? RA: Two or three weeks ago, I got information that my brother tried

to find someone via the darknet to kill me here in Germany. RD: To kill you?

RA: Yes. RD: Your brother? Your own brother wants to kill you? RA: Yes, my brother.

I was completely devastated and I was crying

when I went to the police. RD: I'm not surprised. RA: I made the complaint

listed as a criminal, and it was too much for me. RD: Did you love your brother

RA: Yes. Before I became an atheist, before everything in my mind changed, we were really close,

we were talking, going to restaurants, doing things together. But after I moved

he didn't accept that; I brought shame on the family. RD: Which is incredibly sad.

RA: Yes. RD: And it's really troubling that a belief, a religious belief, can actually take over someone's mind,

can parasitize someone's mind, to the extent that he would kill, he wants to kill his own beloved sister.

and it just shows the power, the evil power, that religion can exert

over a vulnerable human mind. I am shocked by that. And I am very sorry for you.

I greatly admire your courage, the courage with which you are standing up to this. RA: Thank you.

RD: At present, your book, 'A woman is not allowed to dream,' is only published in German and

RA: In French. RD: German and French. RD: Not in Arabic?

RD: Not English?
RA: Not English. RD: Now, it seems to me a great pity that it's not published in English.

How well is it selling in the German edition? RA: It was a Spiegel bestseller.
RD: A Spiegel bestseller?

RA: In the first three, four, five months, in the beginning it was a bestseller.

RD: Then it must be published in English. That's ridiculous. We must try to make efforts to find an English publisher.

RD: A bestseller in Spiegel? Congratulations on that. What about other languages? RA: If a publishing house gets interested in my story,

they contact me or my agent or my publishing house in Germany, and we start to deal with that.
RD: Yes, okay.

RD: Other languages than English you haven't tried yet? RA: I think they are trying for other languages,

but now we are successful with French. I also think it will be in the Czech Republic,

but I am not really sure.
RD: Right. RD: What about other languages spoken in the Islamic world,

like Indonesian, Urdu, Farsi, that kind of thing? RA: I think it's important.

Because of my story or my book, I met two Saudi women here in Germany, they told me afterwards,
"We were touched by your story,

we saw you on the Internet or we saw your video, we have the power to get out of our country

and be free like you." And I think if you read my book, you will really be touched

and the women are afraid or they think, "We can't change our lives,

we can't do anything, we have to accept this kind of society and we have to accept what they want from us."

But you see, it's possible; it's not something really... RD: If we think back to your time in Saudi Arabia

and other Islamic countries, I'm sure you're not alone. There must be lots of others like you

who need to escape. Do you have some sense of how many atheists there might be in Saudi Arabia?

It's impossible to know, of course. But did you talk to any of your friends while you were there?

RA: I think a lot, but we can't really be sure because they can't show their identity

or say, 'We are atheists.' I think we can say, like, 3 or 4 million, we can say.

RD: We know, don't we, that the Arabic translation of *The God Delusion*, which you read, you downloaded,

has been downloaded, I think, 13 million times, the Arabic translation. I think 3 million of those in Saudi Arabia,

which is a very significant figure. It does suggest something very encouraging. I have heard similar stories from Iran.

That there is a very large groundswell, a very large underground of non-religious people in Iran.

RA: Because for us, if you start to search, if you start to open your mind to know other kinds of thought,

you will start with an important book. And for us, it was your book, the beginning.

I think also in Iran, if they want to start with a book, they start with *The God Delusion* also.

RD: The Richard Dawkins Foundation is starting a new project to translate several of my books, not just *The God Delusion*,

into Arabic, Farsi, Indonesian, and Urdu. For free download. Not to be published as paperbacks.

but to be downloaded for free. So we hope that that will help people who are still in the predicament that you were in.

Richard Dawkins interviews Saudi Arabian atheist author Rana Ahmad

Richard Dawkins interviews Saudi Arabian atheist author Rana Ahmad